I get the impression that what Catholics call the domestic church is equally valued in Judaism. Thanks.
So you believe religious tradition supercedes people’s right to their own body. This is abhorrent to me since it is a mind set of, My baby is my property to do with as I want. Its not a person with rights until he can speak, been educated on his rights, and has the ability to stand up for himself to people wanting to forcibly agument his body without his concent. Your inability to wait to do this practice when they are adults is very telling in the cowardic of this barbaric practice. Your religion and you are a coward to force this on infants instead of waiting till they are adults to choose this religious branding. To illustrate how disgusting this practice is, I guaranty you that your moyals will not orally perform this practice on a 30 year old man wanting to join the religion because that would look to much like a gay act of love. But molesting an infant is just fine for religious practice right?
I have a pagan friend who watched the video about this practice. Then she and her husband decided this was best for their son. Many hospitals require parents to understand about this practice and still many parents choose to do this even when they are not religious. If you do not want to do this, then OK.
So you will be of the opinion that baptism should only be carried out on adults? Accusing long standing posters here of being child abusers or supporting molesting children is off-key.
Parents “force” a lot of things on their children, most of all their parenting style. Since when do infants call the shots in any family, even those who practice a permissive parenting style? We nurture our children in the best way we can according to our culture (which includes, among other things, religion, customs, language, and dress) and according to our own personality. Sometimes we make mistakes, of course, and learn from these mistakes.
I would suggest you read about Judaism–its beliefs, moral values, customs, and philosophy. You seem to be woefully ill-informed about the religion. Also do a little more research on circumcision: its benefits as well as drawbacks.
Yeah, my mum forced me to go to Mass and learn to read when very little. Man, I’m still getting over the abuse now and I find myself slipping back into reading books every so often still. Edgy neck beard atheism is amusing when you are in your early 20’s or so and is often the hallmark of a reasonably intelligent mind I’ve noticed, but it also tends to tie together with lack of direct life experience and ironically can end up assuming a tone of zealotry and fanaticism whilst trying to go on about how wicked religious people area.
Changing the subject from optional body augmentation to baptism. Sorry, but I am only talking about the idea that people do not get rights to how their body is permanently augmented for tribal unity until people are old enough to demand that right be applied to them as well. So religious practices teach the religious that rights of the individual are only rights if the individual can demand them, unless they are the unborn. That is the topic of this conversation. Stop changing the topic because it brings out your inner coward to not stay on this topic and contribute. Want to talk about everything else but this, fine. But this is what I am talking about here, not your preferred topic.
Fallacious logic, the Jews have also earned the right to be Jewish without you defining how they are to conduct themselves or what shape their practices should take. The use of circumcision by Jews or Muslims does not bother me in the slightest beyond the concern that it be done hygienically and that’s about it. Beyond that I view male circumcision in both communities as their business and not mine. Calling people cowards is not a great way to talk to them either simply because they have a different outlook than you on this topic.
This is not a medically necessary procedure. It is a tribal elective body augmentation that is attached to religious practices that we have socially deemed okay for parents to partake in since the infant will not remember this being done to them at all and will just grow up with their body being changed to this state and that will be the norm for them.
I am only talking about the idea that people, regardless of age, have a right to not have their body selectively augmented until they are adults and are able to give consent to the procedure. Infants don’t gain rights as they grow up. They have the same rights as every adult has. This is where I see the issue. If it is a medically necessary process, then parents can make this call under informed medically approved processes. That’s fine then. That is why vaccines are okay, but permanent physical augmentation is not. I don’t see why people can’t stay on this point and keep dodging this part of the discussion by bringing up baptism, drinking a glass of wine, attending mass, etc. How is this understanding of this cultural practice not what I am presenting other than people just being used to always having this power over their children. Parents are to be stewards of their children, the children are not their property or play things.
The term “genital mutilation” is loaded, is it not? So is the use of terms such as “inner coward” and “cowardice responses.” My main argument is NOT that because newborns do not remember being circumcised, the procedure is okay. This implies that it is a secretive procedure that you don’t want them to even know about (as is your adult analogy). I merely mentioned not remembering to illustrate that there are in the vast majority of instances no ill effects from circumcision. The MAIN reason for the procedure’s being “okay” is that it is a RELIGIOUS ceremony prescribed by G-d according to Jewish belief. It is NOT religious “branding,” as you call it. Rather, it is the fulfilling of a commandment. Jesus was circumcised, as was virtually every male Jew since the time of Abraham. What negative effects did the procedure have on these people?
You are looking at this procedure with modern (and atheist) eyes. Try looking at it through the eyes of believers, particularly those who practice Judaism. Through their eyes, it is NOT regarded as torture, not a punishment, not an evil monstrous act which denies people their rights and treats them like property or play things. It is a commandment from the covenant of Abraham, which sanctifies Jews.
I did not say what you seem to believe that I said. My point is that my friend and her husband made the decision knowing all the facts. They did not do it for tribal reasons, religious reasons, or any other reason. They do not consider it mutilation. I am sorry that you see it in only one view. This family is happy with their decision years later.
Personal autonomy has distinct limits. No-one is entirely autonomous, including you or I. You are trying to turn the whole matter into a human rights issue and suggest children are been abused and create a furore over nothing in my view. Please refrain from using personal insults such as you have engaged in here thank you.
Circumcision is a much more serious procedure for an adult to have, as opposed to an infant. I was chatting with my urologist about this, a lot of American men who were drafted into the army during WWII got involuntarily snipped in this matter, and many still complain about it.
Fine then, let people give consent when they are adults. Why do this when they are infants? It is because the adults can fight back, can choose to not do this, can enforce their rights of their body without the practice being forced on them. Infants can not. That is why it is cowardice. All your points for why it is important for the religious practice has nothing to do with the age of the individual. These practices can be done as an adult as well.
Oh if we hold you down, apply anesthesia, surgically augment your body, and then you don’t remember it and there are no ill effects, that would be okay to do to you then?
By Jewish law, circumcision is required on the eighth day after birth unless there are medical reasons which prohibit this.
Indeed, by the way this is echoed in a way in Christian tradition where in some Churches it is considered the ideal to aim for baptism on the eighth day. Circumcision is used in some Christian Churches, albeit a small minority. Coptic Christians for historical reasons tend to tattoo their children with an image of the Cross also, often on the inside of the wrist or on the arm.
Interesting. I did not know about the tattooing practice.
I’ve worked with a lot of Jewish people over the years, this is not a burning issue as far as am aware in the Jewish community and nor are there legions of Jewish blokes wandering around going on about the abuse of been circumcised. I’d say this is not even a hill to have a mild headache on, let alone die on.
Deliberately done so other Coptic Christians, whether Catholic or Orthodox can identify fellow Christians. Some Churches in Egypt ask those entering to roll up their sleeves in fact, especially if they are situated in areas prone to mob violence or terrorist attacks.
In the modern age, it seems as though virtually EVERYTHING is a human-rights issue to be fought for or against, except certain religious rights.