Anti-Catholic Friend wrote this - Help me


#1

A very angry friend send me something today and I can usually answer and defend what I believe but she had a name in Latin I do not know. You perhaps can help - anyone? She said this:
“The Preferred Deception of New Age Thought! - The Roman Catholic definition of a saint is not the Scriptural definition of a saint. A saint is NOT a lesser god that you pray to. The Pope’s Latin title, FILII VICARIVS DEI, literally means a substitute god, and the word Vatican in classical Latin means divination or witchcraft! Clearly, a false, occult god (NON-god!) is attracting the leaders of states and religions to itself.”

What does Filii Vicarivs Dei translate as and is it indeed the name of the Pope. I have seen this answered somewhere - probably Keating? Can you help me? Thanks so much. I just call him Papa.


#2

[quote=Terry Fenwick]A very angry friend send me something today and I can usually answer and defend what I believe but she had a name in Latin I do not know. You perhaps can help - anyone? She said this:
“The Preferred Deception of New Age Thought! - The Roman Catholic definition of a saint is not the Scriptural definition of a saint. A saint is NOT a lesser god that you pray to. The Pope’s Latin title, FILII VICARIVS DEI, literally means a substitute god, and the word Vatican in classical Latin means divination or witchcraft! Clearly, a false, occult god (NON-god!) is attracting the leaders of states and religions to itself.”

What does Filii Vicarivs Dei translate as and is it indeed the name of the Pope. I have seen this answered somewhere - probably Keating? Can you help me? Thanks so much. I just call him Papa.
[/quote]

I don’t claim to be a Latin expert, but it looks like the Vicar of the Son of God, which we know as the Vicar of Christ.

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9312vbv.asp
(wrong link on first try, sorry)

On the other subject:
catholic.com/search.asp?searchType=file&target=intercession+saints


#3

[quote=DeFide]I don’t claim to be a Latin expert, but it looks like the Vicar of the Son of God, which we know as the Vicar of Christ.

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9312vbv.asp
(wrong link on first try, sorry)

On the other subject:
catholic.com/search.asp?searchType=file&target=intercession+saints
[/quote]

Here’s more

The first is that Vicarius Filii Dei, or “Vicar of the Son of God,” is not now, nor has it ever been, a title of the bishop of Rome. The second problem is that virtually no one, including many unsuspecting lay Catholics, knows that this papal “title” is a fabrication. To an untrained ear, it sounds enough like one of the pope’s real titles, Vicarius Christi (Vicar of Christ), to pass the test. Unfortunately for those who traffic in this particular piece of pope fiction, the real title, Vicarius Christi, adds up to only a measly 214, not the infernal 666. In fact, none of the pope’s official titles, such as Servus Servorum Dei (Servant of the Servants of God), Pontifex Maximus (Supreme Pontiff), or Successor Petri (Successor of Peter), will add up to 666. That’s why you never see any of them used by anti-Catholics.

source: envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.2/mar_apr98_coverstory.html


#4

You may also want to point out that the Saints are **not **‘little gods’, but people who are perfected in Christ. They are human, perfected humans, but only human. Point out that we **do not **worship them.

Also:

Vatican: ***
from L. mons Vaticanus, Roman hill on which Papal palace stands. An Etruscan loan-word,
not related to vates “sooth-sayer.”
*

This is from etymonline.com/index.php?term=Vatican


#5

Why is your friend so angry?


#6

If you feel like you need more info post on the ask an apologist forum and they will help you out.

matt


#7

I get confused with anti-catholic and friend used in the same sentence :eek: :eek: :eek:


#8

Saints are just departed souls (save for a few angelic saints) that we know are in heaven whom we can ask to pray for us just as we ask other people here on earth to pray for us.


#9

Here is one article that explains that this “title” is not a title of the Papacy and actually comes from a forged document:

shasta.com/sphaws/vicar.html

Here is a wikipedia article (secular source) that also shows that this is not true:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarius_Filii_Dei

Vicarius Filii Dei, Vicar of the Son of God in Latin, is a title mentioned in the forged Donation of Constantine as belonging to Saint Peter. Some claim that it is a title possessed by the Pope as head of the Roman Catholic Church (among them are certain groups within the Seventh-day Adventist church) . However the Roman Catholic Church categorically denies this.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7f/John23tiara.jpg The 1877 Papal Tiara supposedly containing Vicarius Filii Dei

When numerised in a certain way (see below), the words Vicarius Filii Dei produce the total of 666, a number described as the ‘number of the beast’ (ie, Antichrist in the Book of Revelation). Some claim this is evidence that the pope is the Antichrist. They also claim such a title is written on the Papal Tiara, the papal crown.

Read the section in Wikipedia called “The Reality” which details why “the claim is demonstrably false”.

Have you asked your friend why she is so angry and why she would even believe that you are involved in a Church of “witchcraft”?


#10

Great question and sad to say we used to teach the same Bible Study (Protestant) and were best friends - this has been so difficult for her. If I say to you that she likes those angry Chick tracks, will that help you understand this? She is truly anti-Catholic although she did not seem to be until my husband and I became Catholic. It is sad. God is doing a work in this but I may not live (here on earth) long enough to see her change. At least she is communicating. In the beginning she said she would never talk to me about the Catholic Church and we have gradually come back to the communicating table.

Thanks much!


#11

Jack Chick?! :crying: Bless you for trying! It can’t be easy. Sometimes the most vehement anti-Catholics end up converting and becoming our most enthusiastic apologists. Anything is possible with the Holy Spirit.

:blessyou:


#12

[quote=Isidore_AK]You may also want to point out that the Saints are **not **‘little gods’, but people who are perfected in Christ. They are human, perfected humans, but only human. Point out that we **do not **worship them.

Yes, we have in the past talked about saints as believers and Canonized Saints who lived like Saints! It is difficult to have friends who believe in eternal life but can’t handle thinking the Saints could be intercessors when we have Jesus as the Intercessor - even when you explain that people ask us to pray here on earth for them and we are no more alive than these Saints who have gone on before us. It just takes more Grace than I can tell to grasp this TRUTH especially by Bible teaching Christians like this one and like Scott Hahn was. But when it happens, wow it happens. Lord, hear our prayer for my friend!
[/quote]


#13

Why is there so much Anti-Catholocism? It’s simple. Everyone knows that Christ founded one Church. And thanks to the Reformation, every Protestant Church since then has broken off from that Church.

For each denomination to be right in breaking away from the Catholic Church, one things HAS TO BE TRUE: The Catholic Church must be wrong. Every thing they teach and preach depends on this one fact being true!!! So deep in your heart, if you wish something to be true (thereby validating your entire faith), you will believe nearly anything in order to confirm your faith.

Furthermore, if the Catholic Church is right, and your denomination was wrong to break away, then where does that place your entire religion??? In Heresy!!!

Please understand, this is not a judgement on our religious beliefs, I’m just trying to shed a little light on the reasons behind some of the unreasonable-ness (?).

Does this make sense?

Still NotWorthy


#14

[quote=Eden]Jack Chick?! :crying: Bless you for trying! It can’t be easy. Sometimes the most vehement anti-Catholics end up converting and becoming our most enthusiastic apologists. Anything is possible with the Holy Spirit.

:blessyou:
[/quote]

Yes!!! Do you know she is a brilliant woman who knows the Word, uses still KJV (legalistically) and the thing that is amazing to me is that God has not shown her anything about the Truth of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. She is a great rapture person and is waiting daily for the return of Christ, an avid reader, and thinks I need deliverance from the spirit of Catholicism. I know it was a shock to her but she always trusted me in the past knowing I knew the Word well and so on and so on and so on. She needs an awakening. She does not yet know that the Church does not accept the rapture theory. I need to tell her that but it might be too much. Maybe soon.


#15

First, let me salute you for being able and willing to keep the lines of communication open. I read a book, I think it was called The Rapture Trap (I can’t find it!) which explains how the rapture is an invention of the 19th (?) century and explains how those who believe in it have to twist in pretzels to get the Bible to say what they want it to say.

I haven’t gotten around to buying Will Catholics Be Left Behind?, but it must be good, it’s from Catholic Answers!

Anyway, a discussion of the rapture might be a good opening to get your friend to start questioning some of her biases and start looking at the Catholic Church with fresh eyes. Good luck!


#16

[quote=Terry Fenwick]Yes!!! Do you know she is a brilliant woman who knows the Word, uses still KJV (legalistically) and the thing that is amazing to me is that God has not shown her anything about the Truth of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. She is a great rapture person and is waiting daily for the return of Christ, an avid reader, and thinks I need deliverance from the spirit of Catholicism. I know it was a shock to her but she always trusted me in the past knowing I knew the Word well and so on and so on and so on. She needs an awakening. She does not yet know that the Church does not accept the rapture theory. I need to tell her that but it might be too much. Maybe soon.
[/quote]

Sounds like a case for a couple hundred hours before the Blessed Sacrament. You can only do what you can do. You can plant and water, but only God will grow the seed . . .

I have a little trouble swallowing your statement that your friernd is “brilliant” in the same gulp as your statement that she reads Jack Chick tracts. Yag.

I hear that people have actually been CONVERTED to Catholicism because of Jack Chick: they figure they have to look into the Church more thoroughly – out of a kind of prurience or curiosity sparked by the tracts – and then, WHAM! It hits 'em. Oh, m’gosh! This really IS THE Church!

Anyway. Since you can show that the Vicarius Filii Dei title is absolutely bogus, you will have undermined her confidence in this ridiculous nonsense, and she might begin to question the rest.

Godspeed


#17

[quote=Terry Fenwick]“The Preferred Deception of New Age Thought! - The Roman Catholic definition of a saint is not the Scriptural definition of a saint. A saint is NOT a lesser god that you pray to. The Pope’s Latin title, FILII VICARIVS DEI, literally means a substitute god, and the word Vatican in classical Latin means divination or witchcraft! Clearly, a false, occult god (NON-god!) is attracting the leaders of states and religions to itself.”
[/quote]

First: :rotfl:

With that out of the way, “filii vicarius dei” translates to the “vicar of the son of god.” It does not mean “substitute god.” Also, as others have pointed out, it isn’t one of the Pope’s titles.

The Roman Catholic definition of saint is not “a lesser god that you pray to.” The charge itself is false. From the CCC:
**828 **By *canonizing *some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.

Furthermore, the Catholic Church recognizes that all Christians are saints, even if not all of us are Saints. This recognition is entirely in accord with Scripture.

“Vaticanus” doesn’t necessarily mean “divination” and certainly doesn’t mean “witchcraft.” It’s meaning is closer to “prophet.”

– Mark L. Chance.


#18

[quote=DeFide]Here’s more

The first is that Vicarius Filii Dei, or “Vicar of the Son of God,” is not now, nor has it ever been, a title of the bishop of Rome…the real title, Vicarius Christi, adds up to only a measly 214, not the infernal 666.

Just to add to this, would the Church really be stupid enough to come up with, and to keep, an official title that adds up to 666?

I imagine that the answer from the anti-Christ crowd would be something like “yes, God clouded their minds in order to warn the world”. Start with what you want to prove, and then work backwards to prove it. Even that doesn’t explain why the Church would not have eliminated this title the first time an outsider pointed out the 666 problem.

It is of course simply anti-Catholic propaganda of a very crude nature.
[/quote]


#19

[quote=RocketScientist]First, let me salute you for being able and willing to keep the lines of communication open. I read a book, I think it was called The Rapture Trap (I can’t find it!) which explains how the rapture is an invention of the 19th (?) century and explains how those who believe in it have to twist in pretzels to get the Bible to say what they want it to say.

[/quote]

This is a great book written by Paul Thigpen. I highly recommend it. Here is the link.

shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0431.html?L+scstore+tfdl9936ffc75cc7+1122741117


#20

[quote=NotWorthy]Why is there so much Anti-Catholocism? It’s simple. Everyone knows that Christ founded one Church. And thanks to the Reformation, every Protestant Church since then has broken off from that Church.

For each denomination to be right in breaking away from the Catholic Church, one things HAS TO BE TRUE: The Catholic Church must be wrong. Every thing they teach and preach depends on this one fact being true!!! So deep in your heart, if you wish something to be true (thereby validating your entire faith), you will believe nearly anything in order to confirm your faith.

Furthermore, if the Catholic Church is right, and your denomination was wrong to break away, then where does that place your entire religion??? In Heresy!!!

Please understand, this is not a judgement on our religious beliefs, I’m just trying to shed a little light on the reasons behind some of the unreasonable-ness (?).

Does this make sense?

Still NotWorthy
[/quote]

Yes, all of it makes sense and I have said it to her in the past and it just makes her more angry. She needs to open to GRACE because the LORD has so much for her to do. She is even an author! Beg God for her to be open to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and TRUTH!


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