Anti-semitism in the Church?


#1

I was talking to this gentleman and he told me that the church was anti-semetic. I rebuttled with the fact the Pope Pius the 12th had saved more jews and protested the NAZI regieme more than anyone in the history of that time frame. He was not anti-semetic and one does not get to be pope by going out against what the church say. He told me that He was a rarity and that he was one in a million (or so) Catholics that don’t feel that way. He stated that it was only at the Second Vatican council that the Catholic Church attepmted to put on the face of not anti-semetic to the public by taking of the phrase “and the jews killed Christ” out of some statement, thought the church still teaches rigourous anti-simitism. I was not born till twenty years after the second Vatian Council closed in '65 and was not interested in catholism till five years ago so my knoweledge of the second Vatican council, Church history and (sadly) the churches postion on the Jews (because I never thought there was anything all that important there). What would be the best way to respond to this? Thank you for any help you can lend me on this issue and God bless.


#2

You would probably want to do some research on the web before responding in a balanced fashion.
The Church has always consistently, until V2, been aggressively against JUDAISM. Whereas anti-semitism is a bogotry against the ethnic line of JEWS.
The Jews LOVE to criss-cross the 2 and to blur or even eliminate the distinction. That is what you actually are dealing with.
When the historical Church preached against Jews it was JUDAISM not an ethnic person who may not even practice or be aware of JUDAISM.
The best way to get a handle on this is to web-search with the word “thalmud” ot “Talmud” included…
I have gone through sections of the Talmud, and it is a disgrace against all gentiles and any Christian. Of course, those who cry “anti-semite” will never bring that up.
The Talmud has been around for about 1200 years in written form, (orally for 600 more years before) but was hard to acquire until they published it via the new printing press in the 1500’s. Then it became more common knowledge what Talmudic JUDAISM really was about…
So make them stay with JUDAISM as it has been ACTUALLY practiced via the Talmud Tradition. They’ll either shut up or scream and squirm.
If you hold the Scriptures, it tells you that the Jews (meaning religious faith of Judaism Jews) did kill their Messiah (the Christ).
Talmudic Judaism is highly costic to social justice in the true sense. It is also very secular oriented in its teachings.
I can see where the teachings agianst Talmudic Judaism could transfer over to “Jews” as a race of people, and that is what the Church is trying to cancel out. Did they go about it correctly?
All I know is that Talmudic Judaism is highly corrosive and adversarial to the Catholic Faith and even a democratic society governed by the christian moral statutes…
Edited inflammatory and anti-semetic link


#3

I’m not terribly good at history either, but I do know that Jesus (and all the first 12 apostles) were Jews. Paul was a exceptionaly devote Jew. Jesus came FOR and THROUGH the Jews, it was only after his death that the gosple went to the Gentiles.

Although I know it has happened in individuals who did not understand their faith, for any Catholic (or any Christian for that matter) to hate Jews would be rather against the teachings of Christ.

But then again I have always thought this way, and didn’t know such racism existed at all (in the “modern world”) until college. :o


#4

*Hot off the press…

The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis*.

by Rabbi David G. Dalin

Published by Regnery Press, 2005

Definitive refutation of these claims. The more you study history, the more you love the Catholic Church.


#5

Read TNT’s little link with care and caution. It isn’t representative of the thinking of the Magisterium. And this line is a bit telling:

“Today, in American politics, journalism, and ecclesiastical circles, fear of Jewish power is overwhelming.”

One more appeal to fear some kind of Jewish conspiracy. That’s stock in trade for anti-semites, the illusion that there is some conspiracy of the Jews.

If you want to know what the Church’s relationship and attitude to the Jews is (all Jews, She doesn’t distinguish between “Talmudic” Jews and secular ones), here’s what the Catechism says (and that is the “sure norm” for teaching the faith):

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.


#6

[quote=adnauseum]Hot off the press…

The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis.

by Rabbi David G. Dalin

Published by Regnery Press, 2005

Definitive refutation of these claims. The more you study history, the more you love the Catholic Church.

[/quote]

I heard the author of this book on Al Kresta a week or so back. Sounded interesting, but it was already information I have read in other books including Hitler, the War, and the Pope by Ronald J. Rychlak and Salvation Is from the Jews by Roy H. Schoeman.

PF


#7

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Read TNT’s little link with care and caution. It isn’t representative of the thinking of the Magisterium. And this line is a bit telling:

“Today, in American politics, journalism, and ecclesiastical circles, fear of Jewish power is overwhelming.”

One more appeal to fear some kind of Jewish conspiracy. That’s stock in trade for anti-semites, the** illusion that there is some conspiracy of the Jews**.

If you want to know what the Church’s relationship and attitude to the Jews is (all Jews, She doesn’t distinguish between “Talmudic” Jews and secular ones)…

[/quote]

Introducing Mr Illusion of Conspiracy:
His Holiness Pope Benedict XIV

Here is a more recent article on Popes assisting and protecting Jews. But.they fail to get any recognition either.

“Turn Thine eyes of mercy towards the children of that race, once Thy chosen people. Of old, they called down upon themselves the Blood of the Saviour; may It now descend upon them a laver of redemption and of life” (Prayer approved of by His Holiness Pope Pius XI

More Illusions. This time from a heavyweight Jew:
. "What is Jesus to the* Jewish nation* at the present day? To the Jewish nation He can neither be God nor the Son of God in the sense conveyed by belief in the Trinity. Either conception is to the Jew not only impious and blasphemous, but incomprehensible. Neither can he, to the Jewish nation, be the Messias : the kingdom of Heaven (the ‘Days of the Messias’) is not yet come " (Jesus of Nazareth, by J. Klausner, Jewish Professor at the University of Jerusalem, p. 414).
A few pages onward:
[the ethical code of Jesus is] “no ethical code for the nations and the social order of today, when men are still trying to find the way to that future of the Messias and the Prophets, and to the ‘Kingdom of the Almighty,’ spoken of by the Talmud, an ideal which is of this world and which gradually and in the course of generations is to take shape in this world.”


#8

[quote=TNT]Introducing Mr Illusion of Conspiracy:
His Holiness Pope Benedict XIV

Here is a more recent article on Popes assisting and protecting Jews. But.they fail to get any recognition either.

“Turn Thine eyes of mercy towards the children of that race, once Thy chosen people. Of old, they called down upon themselves the Blood of the Saviour; may It now descend upon them a laver of redemption and of life” (Prayer approved of by His Holiness Pope Pius XI

More Illusions. This time from a heavyweight Jew:
. "What is Jesus to the* Jewish nation* at the present day? To the Jewish nation He can neither be God nor the Son of God in the sense conveyed by belief in the Trinity. Either conception is to the Jew not only impious and blasphemous, but incomprehensible. Neither can he, to the Jewish nation, be the Messias : the kingdom of Heaven (the ‘Days of the Messias’) is not yet come " (Jesus of Nazareth, by J. Klausner, Jewish Professor at the University of Jerusalem, p. 414).
A few pages onward:
[the ethical code of Jesus is] “no ethical code for the nations and the social order of today, when men are still trying to find the way to that future of the Messias and the Prophets, and to the ‘Kingdom of the Almighty,’ spoken of by the Talmud, an ideal which is of this world and which gradually and in the course of generations is to take shape in this world.”

[/quote]

It doesn’t matter what they say about us. It matters what the Church says about them. And yes, I’ve read "“A Quo Primum.”

I’m not saying that the Popes did nothing to help the Jews. I’m not saying that individual Jews are not wrong in their criticism of the same Popes. The point in the minds of a lot of Jews (and Christians as well) is that the notion of “blood guilt”/Jews as deicides has sewn the seeds of anti-semitism and persecution. The Church has repudiated the notion of “blood guilt.” Some of the Jewish leaders were responsible for the death of Jesus, as was at least one Gentile (Pilate, if you’re willing to excuse the soldiers as merely following orders). The Jewish people as a whole were not guilty and are not guilty. The whole thing of blaming the Jews as a whole never made sense to me anyway, inasmuch as Our Lord knew He was to die, knew why He had to die, and then died…for us. In the Exsultet at Easter, we say,“Oh happy fault, oh necessary sin of Adam, that won for us so wonderful a Savior!”


#9

Maybe you should read today’s gospel reading.

usccb.org/nab/081405a.htm


#10

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