Anybody else going to see Valkyrie on Christmas day?

**Von Stauffenberg hoped to be a big wheel in the new, post-Hitler Germany. He was willing to kill for peace and justice, but he wasn’t willing to die for it.

If he’d remained in the room, he could have literally stuck the brief case under the Fuehrer’s nose at the critical moment.

Would this have been a morally acceptible choice?**

**Sort of an anti-Nazi jihadist suicide bomber?

This comes under the heading of double-effect, and I’m not a moral theologian.**

:christmastree1: If i remember correctly, someone moved the brief case Stauffenberg left there in the meeting .When the briefcase was moved from it’s original postion under the table, it changed the way the explosion happend, the projectile or whatever, so Hitler wound up not being killed.Stauffenberg had to leave because he was giving information to his co conspiritors.He wasn’t the only man invovled in this plot to assinate Hitler.
I don’t care for Crusie in this role, would prefer Pierce Brosnan
or someone else for the role, but can live with it.

My interest in seeing the movie in from a family standpoint.
I don’t think we are related to Count von Staffenburg, but my late father had relatives in the german military.
Daddy’s cousin Generaloberst Carl Hilpert was commander of Army Group Courland (Kurland in german) during WW2.Two of Carl’s sons were officers in the Wermacht, his son, my cousin Phillip was killed in battle on the Eastern Front.
Our family has a long tradtion of military service, and have often wondered if any family members were involved in the plot to kill Hitler.
There were other attempts on Hitler’s life before this most famous one, but none of them ever succeded.The attempt by Stauffenberg came closest i guess.

Simon, you might be interested in seeing the movie,A Man For All Seasons, with Paul Scofield in the role of St.Thomas More. He was Lord Chancellor under Henry the Eigth, and was later beheaded by Henry as was St.John Fisher.You might also like to read about some of the English Catholic maryters like St.Oliver Plunkett and St.Edmund Campion,St.John Wall and others.
What Catholic Pious figures are you refering to,by saying they were kind of femine? There were also various kings who were saints, like St.Stephen of Hungary,St.Ferdinand,St.Louis of France,etc.

On Christmas day?


Not just no…


(Anyway, the reenactment of the plot and assassination in War and Remembrance is probably more accurate, and the added bonus is that I don’t have to watch Tommy.)


I have nothing against Saints that others here admire, like Francis, Dominic and others who were great educators and nice guys. But I just can’t get into reading about that, especially as a man who is not a pacifist and who doesn’t get the whole chastity obsession. The Church has too many girly-men in its ranks. I find it alienates me.

I actually prefer Biblical leaders like Joshua, Gideon, David etc, who were interesting - conquerors, failures, sinful but still hoping to do the right thing. I can identify with that. I almost envy Muslims who have the Prophet Mohammed as a model, as Mohammed was a great leader and general. The manhood of Jesus has been stripped away by political correctness.

Sorry but find Stauffenberg heroism more interesting and easier to understand and relate to. Will be interested to see if Cruise credits Stauffenberg’s Catholicism.

Semper Fi.

:cool: That’s why i mention St.thomas More.It took alot of guts to defy Henry the Eigth, and he was known for his love of his wife and family. St.Ferdinand and some of the other rulers who are saints had to rule their country and deal with wars,rebellions and other affairs.

The church seems to have gotten back to canonizing laypeople, like St.Louis Strattman, a Hungarian nobleman and doctor,who was married and provided medical care to the poor,and there are other examples, like Venerable Matthew Talbot, an Irish alcholic, who through the grace of God worked to change his life around.
Many people pray that he will be canonized some day.
Some of these more modern saints were people like us.They had their faults, but they as you say tried to do the right thing.
Some of the martyers of the Spanish Civil War were also ordinary people and others were victims of the nazis and communists.

Yeah,I imagine for a man it is hard to relate to saints who are priests and monks, who never were married or seemed to have the problems we mortals do.

Like you, my late father was a man of action, but i don’t know of any particular male saint he followed.He said he modeled his life after his father’s side of the family,so if there was some saint he was attracted to, it was most likely one of the warrior kings.
As a woman, it is of course much easier to identify with some of the women saints. Even for married women, besides Our Lady, there are various saints like St. Hedwig, St.Emma and others who were wives, mothers and widows.

Hopefully the Church will continue to canonize more and more laypeople,who were just like us.


It’s not personal against any of the saints. I just find current Catholicism too wimpish and effeminate - too much Mary, Therese and other female saints. The only men saints are clergy, celibate, pacifists … victims. Boring. The Church has problems getting men to church - wonder why? I can’t believe God created men to be asexual versions of women, which is what the church’s elevation of many recent saints seems to indicate. The church needs to think why so many men abandon the faith - perhaps because it’s preaching is for a man that no man ever wants to be ? I like in evangelical churches that they have more of a Christianity that men can relate to and not be shamed of.

Just my thoughts.

Enjoyed your post btw.


Ooohh I forgot about that…I got that on DVD and as I remember it was very well done. So was the guy who played Hitler in War and Rememberance. I’ll have to watch it beforehand so I can compare.

My dad read a review somewhere from someone who had seen a pre-screening of the movie and they said that it was pretty good and that Cruise wasn’t too bad and the supporting cast was good as well.

Although I know he’ll never be canonized (it would be neat if he was, though), my family has always referred to Vince Lombardi as the patron saint of football coaches. He’s a good “manly” modern Catholic model.

This is true. So why not Vince Lombardi? Why not other men who have been good role models and praise them? Why is modern Catholicism so alienating to men? Look around your church - women outnumber men.

:confused: Well,I don’t know the answer. I think even the past
centuries ago,women probably out numbered men in the church.
Now, this may not have been so when the Church first started,
There were many men who were martyers, some of whom,like St.Maurice and the Thebian Legion were roman soldiers.

It’s hard to say when this started.Some think it might have been
during the Middle Ages and the Crusades,when the feminazation of the Church really started, placing more emphisis on Mary, rather than Jesus her son , and the Holy Spirit seems to have taken a back seat to Mary as one author mentions in his book,where as you know the Evangelicals always talk about Jesus and the Holy Spirit and being anointed by the Spirit.

It may also be that these men like Vince Lombardi and others just don’t have anyone to promote their cause to Rome,as people just think they are good guys.It’s up to us regular folk to change that.

I have noticed quite a few men in my parish at mass on Sunday,and some of that might also be due also to the pastor, I have no clue really why this should be so.
I imagine too, for men and especially married ones, it is hard to relate to a man who is has never been married,since this is not the same as having single male friends who are currently dating, in a long term relationship, though not married legally, or are in between women. They might ,especially the married and ones in a committed relationship understand your martial problems.
I have noticed however on the websites of several diocese,several widowers entering the priesthood as seminarians and also being newly ordained priests.If these late vocations continue, this maybe a good thing for the church.The head pastor at St.Paul’s in San Antonio is a former San Antonio police officer who had a girlfiend at one time.I forgot why the paper said he decided to be a priest, but he is highly regarded by the parishioners and his fellow officers.
Maybe things will eventually change, but there certainly nothing wrong with taking the heros of the Old Testament as role models.

Back on topic, please, the MOVIE: Valkryie. :popcorn:

Nope, I’ve had enough with Hollywood.

Look at the foot of the Cross, three women, and one man–all the other men fled :shrug: .

oops, movie–probably going to see it, we’ll see what the reviews are (not going on Christmas though)

Simon Templar, I think women outnumber men in most Christian churches. I’m a woman and I admit I go to church partly for the social aspect. There seem to be more men in Catholic churches than in mainline Protestant, in my small nonscientific sample.

I saw “Valkyrie” the other night at an advance screening and enjoyed it. Someone more familiar with the history of the assassination plot might enjoy the movie even more.

Given Cruise’s knack for coming out alive at the end, even if all of his buds end up slaughtered, I wouldn’t be surprised if the “altered” the story just a bit so that the plot was succesfull, and Stauffenberg comes out alive and well.

No thanks.

I’d totally love to see it, but I’m no fan of Tom Cruise. I think I look forward to seeing Doubt with my parents, though. *That *is the one movie I want to see before anything else.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

This guy was a Seminarian at the age of 14. Man what happened? I hope he comes Home.

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