Anyone care to help with this? Dates and Church Teaching


#1

I received from an anti-Catholic:

*Let’s see, what did the C. Church add to God’s already complete word:

1 . Prayers for the dead . 300 A.D.
2. Making the sign of the cross 300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints .375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship . 375 A.D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration 394 A.D.
6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus- 431 A.D.
7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)…526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1….593 A.D…
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints …….600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics 786 A.D.
11 Canonization of dead saints … …995 A.D.
12. Celibacy of priesthood …1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary … 1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences ……1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III … 1215 A.D.
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest 1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…… 1220 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion…1414 A.D.
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma…………1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent……1545 A.D.
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ….1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary………….1854 A.D.
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council … 1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) …………1950 A.D. *

Anyone care to help refute this?


#2

I think these are all referring to when the Church “officially” accepted these.

Examples:

Tha Assumption of Mary was made into Dogma after millions of Catholics petioned for it. However, it had been taught for centuries before.

Same goes for the Infallability, except nobody petioned but it was taught from the beginning.

Transubstantiation was a term coined by St. Thomas Aquinas, but if you read the Early Church Fathers, the idea of the Eucharist being the actual body and blood is there.

Celibacy of Priesthood was put into place in the 11th century, not as a punishment or even dogma (it can be changed), simply as a discipline for Priests.

These are some of the examples that I know of. I am unsure of some of the ones I did not touch on, but I am sure some people here could help you if you are concerned. But it seems the list is taken out of context by your anti-catholic pen pal.

peace,
dxu


#3

[quote=gracelife]I received from an anti-Catholic:

*Let’s see, what did the C. Church add to God’s already complete word:

1 . Prayers for the dead . 300 A.D.
2. Making the sign of the cross 300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints .375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship . 375 A.D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration 394 A.D.
6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus- 431 A.D.
7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)…526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1….593 A.D…
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints …….600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics 786 A.D.
11 Canonization of dead saints … …995 A.D.
12. Celibacy of priesthood …1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary … 1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences ……1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III … 1215 A.D.
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest 1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…… 1220 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion…1414 A.D.
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma…………1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent……1545 A.D.
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ….1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary………….1854 A.D.
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council … 1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) …………1950 A.D. *

Anyone care to help refute this?
[/quote]

Wow, your friend gives us entirely too much credit. Let’s see:

  1. Prayers for the Dead? Maccabees, although it was already established as a Jewish tradition.
  2. Making the Sign of the Cross? You mean renewing our covenant with God?!?! Oh, the horror! Bad Catholics!
  3. Veneration of Angels and Saints? Would John get credit for that in Revelations, unless of course I missed (probably) several OT references. BTW, how is praising God for His creations (i.e. venerating saints and angels) blasphemous. Does a artists get angry when you praise his works?
  4. Use of Images in Worship? You might want to read Samuel (?) when God tells David and/or Solomon where to paint the cherubim in His Temple.
  5. The Mass as a daily event? Again, to want to enter into communion with God, daily?!?!? What were we thinking? But he may want to read over Acts of the Apostles again, as Paul mentioned that.
  6. Mary as “Theotokos”? Well yeah, but first we had to determine the true divinity of Christ (True God and True Man) before we could fully understand the doctrine of the Theotokos. Shame on us for letting the Holy Spirit guide us, instead of listening to Jesus. Oh yeah, He told us he would send the Holy Spirit to guide us.
  7. Extreme Unction (Anointing of the Sick)? Does your friend even have a bible?!?!? Tell him to read James one more time. Like Prego, “It in there”!
  8. Purgatory? Again, ask him to check with our Jewish friends. We may have invented the word, Purgatory, but we certainly didn’t invent the theory/doctrine.
  9. Worship to Mary and Dead Saints? I didn’t know anyone who is the Body of Christ is dead. Hmm. But worship? See number 3.
  10. Worship of Crosses, Relics, etc.? I wasn’t aware we worshipped them. I’ll check my Catechism again. Maybe if your friend can show where in our teachings we worship them. It’s easy. The Catholic Catechism is on-line, so he should be able to show you the CC#.

OK, your friend is boring me now, as this gets old. Ask your friend to dispute my disputations, and then we can continue. I’m sure others will be willing to chime in.

NotWorthy


#4

[quote=gracelife]I received from an anti-Catholic:

*Let’s see, what did the C. Church add to God’s already complete word: *

*1 . Prayers for the dead . 300 A.D. *
In the book of Maccabees, part of the Bible until removed by Martin Luther in the 1500s
*2. Making the sign of the cross 300 A.D. *
Baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit - Jesus’ words
*3. Veneration of angels & dead saints .375 A.D. *
*4. Use of images in worship . 375 A.D. *
5. The Mass as a daily celebration 394 A.D.
“This is My Body, do this in remebrance of Me.” No frequency specified
6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus- 431 A.D.
Is Jesus God? Is she His mother?
7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)…526 A.D.
James 5:13-16
*8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1….593 A.D… *
*9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints …….600 A.D. *
10. Worship of cross, images & relics 786 A.D.
We do not worship the cross, images or relics. That is idolatry.
*11 Canonization of dead saints … …995 A.D. *
*12. Celibacy of priesthood …1079 A.D. *
This is not a dogma, but a discipline. Also, didn’t Paul suggest that it would be better for the presbyters not to marry in order to devote themselves to the service of the Lord?
13. The Rosary … 1090 A.D.
*Almost the entire rosary is a recitation of Scripture verses. *
*14. Indulgences ……1190 A.D. *
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III … 1215 A.D.
“This IS my Body.” How much more clear could He have been?
*16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest 1215 A.D. *
*17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…… 1220 A.D. *
“This is My Body.” Need we say more?
*18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion…1414 A.D. *
*19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma…………1439 A.D. *
*20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .1439 A.D. *
Confirmed - yes, added - no.
*21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent……1545 A.D. *
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ….1546 A.D.
No, I believe this is when they were removed by Luther.
*23. Immaculate Conception of Mary………….1854 A.D. *
*24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council … 1870 A.D. *
*25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) …………1950 A.D. *

Anyone care to help refute this?
[/quote]

I added a few comments in blue in the brief time I had. The bigger issue is whether the Church has the authority on these matters. Ask your friend if he/she believes in the doctrine of the Trinity. If so, ask him/her to point to it in the Bible. If he/she accepts the doctrine, then he/she is acknowledging the authority of the Church. How about a Scripture verse that declares the Bible as the sole source of divine revelation? It all comes down to Sola Scriptura and authority.


#5

Wait a minute guys!

This is what’s known among some apologists as “The Boettner List” and if the name doesn’t ring a bell here’s info on that.The Anti-Catholic Bible and Catholic Inventions and More Catholic Inventions

And finally here is a great link that refutes every single one of them.
Feel free to hand it to them and say "Have a nice day!"
The" Boettner List": Fact or Fiction?


#6

[quote=Church Militant]Wait a minute guys!

This is what’s known among some apologists as “The Boettner List” and if the name doesn’t ring a bell here’s info on that.The Anti-Catholic Bible and Catholic Inventions and More Catholic Inventions

And finally here is a great link that refutes every single one of them.
Feel free to hand it to them and say "Have a nice day!"
The" Boettner List": Fact or Fiction?
[/quote]

Awesome resource, CM! :thumbsup: I’ll add it to my favorites.


#7

:clapping:

THANK YOU!


#8

I will try to help with what I can.
1 . Prayers for the dead . 300 A.D. Cheack Maccabees.
2. Making the sign of the cross 300 A.D. early Church Fathers did it (I think)
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints .375 A.D. No the Early church fathers were doing that to the apostles as early as antiquity and Jews did something simalar to Moses and some of the Prohpets
4. Use of images in worship . 375 A.D. And what about all the Cheribums on the TEMPLE and THE ARK
5. The Mass as a daily celebration 394 A.D. I don’t see a problem with it even if it was.
6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus- 431 A.D. No, ECFs (Early Church Fathers) beleived this and she is. Cheack catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp
7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)…526 A.D. No, that was an early thing and what about “Do you have any sick among you? Have the preist come lay hands on him with oils”?
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1….593 A.D… No, it was beleived by Augustine and his mother about two centuries and is rather biblical. I attucally wrote on this to a freind I have it on disk I will try to Post it when I get ahold of the disk but, till then cheack out catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp and catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints …….600 A.D. But, ECF were doing that centuries before. catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
10. Worship of cross, images & relics 786 A.D. “Worhsip”…? CCC
11 Canonization of dead saints … …995 A.D. Not really, and I don’t see why it would be a problem.
12. Celibacy of priesthood …1079 A.D. It is not a dogma. It’s a disapline that can be dropped at any time the church feels it should be. catholic.com/library/Celibacy_and_the_Priesthood.asp
13. The Rosary … 1090 A.D. And St. Francis came up with my favorite prayer “Make me an insturment of your peace…” later on, but, that doesn’t make it a sin.
14. Indulgences ……1190 A.D. I also have that on my disk when I get home I will put it in my backpack and bring it (I am on Lamars Conmputer till mine gets up and running) catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp
catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III … 1215 A.D. But, it’s biblical.
catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest 1215 A.D. attually that is something that was new. Orginnaly you had to make it PUBLIC not private. catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0110sbs.asp
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…… 1220 A.D. But, its Jesus. Transubstantiation (Thanks for the proper spelling on 15 :thumbsup: )
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion…1414 A.D. ???
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma…………1439 A.D. Things are declared dogmas later on. (Jesus was fully human, fully God, fully human and fully God, the trinity were all declared “Dogmas” later on but, where always beleived scince the beggining.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent……1545 A.D. No the bible declared that centuries before and Trent was supporting that. catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ….1546 A.D. St. Thomas used it as scripture (and he spoke for the Church three centuries before) as well as St. Agustine (Elvevn centuries before) and the ECFs did so to. catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary………….1854 A.D. agian always beleived. catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council … 1870 A.D. Again always beleived. catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) …………1950 A.D. There have been churches that have been named after the assuption dating way before that.

I put links on so you could get more details and really flesh it out when you meet these people agian.I will try and send the bits of the letter that I wrote in hopes it will be usefull. Good luck, my prayers are with you.


#9

Congrats Montie! You’ve come a long way since your first posts. Soon you’ll be grabbing the pebble from the masters hand (Please don’t tell me you’re too young to remember that).

NotWorthy


#10

[quote=NotWorthy]Congrats Montie! You’ve come a long way since your first posts. Soon you’ll be grabbing the pebble from the masters hand (Please don’t tell me you’re too young to remember that).

NotWorthy
[/quote]

Thanks. I have learned from the best. I still have a way to go but, My God it feels so good to be able contribute to something like this.


#11

[quote=gracelife]I received from an anti-Catholic:

*Let’s see, what did the C. Church add to God’s already complete word: *

Anyone care to help refute this?
[/quote]

Sure, how about the Canon of the new Testament, A.D. 397.


#12

Hello Gracelife,

I am curious. Did the anti-Catholic have a list of supposed detailed actions and dates for what his Protestant Church did from year 0 to Luther? Or does he claim that his religion splintered off from what he sees as a millenium and half evil?


#13

[quote=Steven Merten]Hello Gracelife,

I am curious. Did the anti-Catholic have a list of supposed detailed actions and dates for what his Protestant Church did from year 0 to Luther? Or does he claim that his religion splintered off from what he sees as a millenium and half evil?
[/quote]

Interesting thought Steven. :wink:

No list about this persons church. All I have so far is not JW, but non-trinitarian and very Bible only.

I’d rather not attack back, but I will stand up for what the RCC teaches.

I did ask this person: Where did we get God’s “complete word” ? How do you know it is complete? Says who? How do you know the books in your Bible are the ones that God wanted in the Bible?

anyway …

Here’s what I have so far from ya’ll’s assistance and from John Silva at scripturecatholic.com:
Prayers for the dead . 300 A.D.

*Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

---------------

*Making the sign of the cross 300 A.D. A reminder of our baptism, based on the Great Commission. Matt 28:19 … baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit


Veneration of angels & dead saints .*375 A.D. Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth. **There is a difference between veneration and worship.

*--------------------

Use of images in worship . *375 A.D. Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

*Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural. *

*I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship. *

*----------------

The Mass as a daily celebration 394 A.D.

*Why not worship everyday? Is there a problem with that?

What a blessing it is that people are able to assemble together during the week!

*-------------------

Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus- 431 A.D. *Mary is Jesus’ mother. Jesus is God. (unless you do not believe in the Trinity)

*-----------------

Extreme Unction (Last Rites)…526 A.D.

*Mark 6:13 and

*James 5:14 - the presbyters (priests) are called to anoint the sick with oil and pray over them. Their sins are forgiven. This is the sacrament of the sick, also called extreme unction. *

*James 5:15 - during the sacrament of the sick, the priest’s prayer of faith will “save” the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up. The word “save” comes from the Greek word “sozein” which means an eschatological saving of life from death. *

*----------------------
Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1….593 A.D…

*Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.”

*Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This shows that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory. *

*-------------

Prayers to Mary & dead saints …….600 A.D.

*Again they are alive: Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah.

We are the body of Christ whether living on earth or in heaven. We ask our friends to pray for us here on earth.

*Catholics do the same and may ask someone in heaven to pray for them as well. Catholics pray to God directly and may pray to God through a Saint. “The prayers of a righteous man availeth much”. James 5:16 *

*-----------------


#14

Worship of cross, images & relics 786 A.D.

*These items are not “worshipped”, that is idoltary.

Can you show me where in the Catholic catechism that Catholics worship these things?

*Rom. 13:7; Phil. 2:25-29; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7 – we are taught to honor the people of God and in 1 Cor. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:1-2; Phil. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:7; Heb. 6:12; Heb. 13:7; James 5:10-11 – we are reminded to imitate them. Keeping relics of the saints serves both to honor and imitate their heroic faith in Christ (just as keeping articles of deceased loved ones helps us honor and imitate them). *

*--------------------

Celibacy of priesthood …1079 A.D.

*This is not a dogma, but a discipline

Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church’s practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

*1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is. *

*1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church. *

*-------------------------

The Rosary … 1090 A.D. *Almost the entire rosary is a recitation of Scripture verses.

*-----------------------

Transubstantiation-Innocent III … 1215 A.D. “This IS my Body.” How much more clear could Jesus have been?


Auricular Confession of sins to a priest 1215 A.D.* John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.


*Adoration of the wafer (Host)…… 1220 A.D. *It’s not a wafer. It is Jesus.

*John 6:35,41,48,51 - Jesus says four times “I AM the bread from heaven.” It is He, Himself, the eternal bread from heaven. *

*John 6:27,31,49 - there is a parallel between the manna in the desert which was physically consumed, and this “new” bread which must be consumed. *

John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

*----------------------------

Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma…………1439 A.D. *Dogmas are declared after something has been in practice. It wasn’t new.

----------------------------

The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .1439 A.D. *Confirmed yes, added no.

------------------

*Apocryphal books added to Bible ….1546 A.D.Nope, they were removed by Luther.


#15

[quote=gracelife]Interesting thought Steven. :wink:

No list about this persons church. All I have so far is not JW, but non-trinitarian and very Bible only.

[/quote]

I know this is a bit off of the original post but, back in my protestant days, a teacher gave in one of his bible studies a thing on the trintiy, if you want I will be more than happy to post it up (I will start a new thread for it so this one can stay on the given topic).


#16

[quote=gracelife]*2. Making the sign of the cross 300 A.D. *

[/quote]

Man, that’s picky.


#17

*18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion…1414 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent……1545 A.D. . *
*23. Immaculate Conception of Mary………….1854 A.D. *
*24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council … 1870 A.D. *
*25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) …………1950 A.D. *

**Okay … Still need help with these. **
**Biblical support would help. **


#18

Has anyone been able to tract down Larry Nolte of Beggar King?

As I remember he did a great job of taking on that list.


#19

If their doctrinal 33 AD. If not who cares.

An interesting thought occurred to me recently. Those after the Orthodox Catholic split can be shown to be false simply by examining what the Orthodox believe. For instance their doctrines on the afterlife, though they don’t use the terms purgatory and transubstantiation are almost identical to ours. They have seven sacraments as well.

Blessings


#20

[quote=gracelife]The Mass as a daily celebration 394 A.D.

Why not worship everyday? Is there a problem with that?

What a blessing it is that people are able to assemble together during the week!
[/quote]

Malachi 1:11
*

11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

Perhaps we also want prophecy to be fulfilled as intended.:smiley: *


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