Anyone here reject Vatican II?


#42

Most likely, your grandparents definition of “traditional catholic,” is far different from those today who label themselves as such.

Jim


#43

They believe the popes have been heretics and so are not popes. (NOTE: it is not necessarily true that heretics ipso facto lose their seat as pope)
Some even don’t believe any valid holy orders anymore after vii changes, so very few valid masses.

What has happened is that many abuses took place around VII though they were not caused by VII, a lot of misunderstandings, etc. Like, people literally would have masses with coffee and donuts instead of wine and bread. It would get extremely wild.

Anyway, it definitely would have felt like this was not Catholicism. However, it is not because of the Church documents or VII, but abusers and those married to the times. Candidates for priesthood would literally start getting girlfriends because they thought that was going to go out the window. Those studying in seminary could be labeled too devout even for just praying the Rosary.

This is not the Councils fault, however.


#44

ALL who consider themselves traditional or traditionalist? ALL of them, Jim?

Father Z considers himself traditionalist. Is his definition ‘far different’ from that of people 70 years ago?


#45

Except that “your parish,” is where you’ll have children baptised, (if you have any) and where you’ll have your funeral Mass, if you’re still living in that parish.

The parish is your community and needs your presence to become, not what you envision, but what is God’s will for the community.

Salvation was never individualistic, but socialistic.

Jim


#46

I’m not allowed to say anything negative about clergy.

All I’ll comment on this.

Jim


#47

So I bring up an actual figure who happens to be a clergy person and you won’t comment because your comments would be negative? Wow. I can’t think of any member of the clergy whom I can’t say SOMETHING positive about, even if I might disagree with them on some points.

OH-Kay. The good news is that anybody can read his blog (can go back for years, even) and make their own determinations.


#48

Aside from the Liturgical reform, Vatican II did not suggest any of the other changes falsely attributed to it. Who took out the communion rails, the altar rails, the statues and other things? Moved the Tabernacle around? Churches are putting back the removed items and the Tabernacle is back in the center aisle, not off to some closet. Why? The most common reason is ‘because of the things that were done in the 1960s.’ I was there. Guitars at Mass. What was wrong with the pipe organ?

I don’t blame anyone regarding what they saw as wrong. It was hard for some to bear.


#49

C😱 Are you serious about that? I have never heard anything like that.

Where did that happen? Is that supposed to be a joke? It’s not funny.


#50

Coffee and donuts after mass maybe.


#51

Each one of us will be judged as individuals.


#52

I got that info from Rev Know it all about the hootenanney mass and other absurdities. What was described therein was heart breaking.


#53

Doesn’t sound like reliable information.
Please don’t make, or pass on, exaggeration or whatever this is:


#54

My grandparents still classify themselves as “traditional” Catholics today. Again, they are 84 and 94 years old.

Being labeled as “traditional” in America has almost always been akin to being a “stick in the mud.”

Honestly, the majority of “traditional Catholics” out there are NOT begging for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass to be restored as the Ordinary Form.

We simply would like to see orthodox teachings, and more solemnity in the Mass (in parishes where that doesn’t happen).

Personally, the way EWTN does their daily mass is beautiful. And if I could easily attend every Sunday mass at our Cathedral, I would be a happy, traditional Catholic.

Honestly, I think society’s objection to anything / anyone labeled “traditional” is what irks traditional Catholics and forces some of them to the EF.

Why should I condon people yelling at me and calling me names because I prefer Gregorian Chant? If it’s perfectly fine to perfer modern music (has people always remind us), why is it so terrible to prefer Chant?

Why is it so terrible to prefer Kyrie Eleison in Greek vs “Lord Have Mercy”?

Why is it so terrible to prefer the Latin Prayers & Hymns that Pope Paul VI said every Catholic should know and that every Parish should use?

Why is it so terrible to want to sing Tantum Ergo in Latin?

And why is it so terrible to want to sing Salve Regina or Oh Come Emmanuel even in ENGLISH???

Don’t want to use Latin, fine. But why do some parishes refuse to sing Salve Regina or Oh Come Emmanuel in ENGLISH??? I just wish I could go to mass once during Advent and hear Oh Come Emmanuel, instead of new hymns written in the 21st century.


#55

Well, ‘new’ was always the thing promoted by some who wanted the Church to change, especially in the period right after Vatican II. At first, it was presented gently, as if no harm was meant, then not so gently and harm was meant. As time passed, Mass in the round. Sacredness? What’s that? That deep, abiding knowing that you were in the House of the Lord, that He was present and that you and the rest of the congregation were there to worship Him. To be lifted up spiritually. But without that lifting up, and with unexplained changes and alterations, Mass attendance begins to fall and fall. Solemnity… in the presence of God. To go out, after Mass, to love and serve the Lord. Instead…


#56

He’s a priest who lived through it. I don’t see why that is an unreliable source. It makes me very sad.
But my father knows a man who left the Catholic Faith because a priest was eating steak on a Friday, saying he would bless it and make it fish.

These types of things are ridiculous and very sad. But we mustn’t be disheartened by the actions of some.


#57

No one yells at you because you love Gregorian Chant.

I too love Gregorian Chant.

I also attend Mass at a Benedictine Monastery which is celebrated the way Mass is celebrated on EWTN.

Can I expect to see these things in my home parish ?

No, because people are at various levels of faith.

“Traditional Catholic,” today, means far different than what your parents understand it to mean.

Most who call themselves Traditional Catholics are often young converts who romanticise what it must’ve been like before Vatican II. Without admitting it so, they hate the Novus Ordo in the vernacular and the priest facing the people. The see God as being out in the cosmos rather dwelling within. Understandable because not only have the not experienced the Holy Spirit dwelling within, but are told not to and if they do, discard it because it’s probably Satan trying to screw you up.

The term, is divisive. It says, I’m a good Catholic. However, if you’re not my style of Catholic, you’re obviously not and should leave the Church. I’ve been told this several times by so-called “traditional Catholics.”

Jim


#58

Then you’ll have to tell Pope Benedict XVI, who wrote about it in Spe Salvi.

Here’s a part of what he wrote, rejecting the idea that salvation is individualistic, bur rather, communal.

  1. Yet now the question arises: are we not in this way falling back once again into an individualistic understanding of salvation, into hope for myself alone, which is not true hope since it forgets and overlooks others? Indeed we are not! Our relationship with God is established through communion with Jesus—we cannot achieve it alone or from our own resources alone. The relationship with Jesus, however, is a relationship with the one who gave himself as a ransom for all (cf. 1 Tim 2:6). Being in communion with Jesus Christ draws us into his “being for all”; it makes it our own way of being. He commits us to live for others, but only through communion with him does it become possible truly to be there for others, for the whole

Jim


#59

… as your trusted source, and …

Not believable. Just admit it is a bad joke and go forward to express your opinion in more constructive (truthful) ways.


#60

I’m sorry Jim, but what you type here is also discisive.

The majority of Catholics do not live where they have easy access to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

And saying that some people who do go the EF don’t have the Holy Spirit is wrong too. You don’t know their hearts.

Most I know, do not hate the OF or feel like the SPPX. They simply don’t like folk music and modern liturgical music, and don’t like being considered some radical traditionalist because they like prefer a more traditional form of worship vs modern.

Not everyone can go to a monestary like you can. A lot of Episcopal Churches (not all) on Sunday offer 1 “Traditional Service” with more traditional hymns, etc and offer a “Contemporary Service” because they recognize people have different preferences.

My question has always been this: why can’t Catholic Parishes do the same thing? Even if it’s Sat night or the crack of dawn on Sun? Why can’t a Catholic Parish have at least one mass with traditional hymns and A LITTLE BIT of Latin every once in a while.

I promise you, if they did that, you would have a lot less people seeking the EF mass.

BTW - I’m one of those younger people. I’m only 40 years old. And a lot of people from my generation (not all) can’t stand the folk music and the music genre that has dominated liturgical music since the 70s.

Finally, I don’t say people who like modern music are heretics or don’t have the Holy Spirit. So I don’t appreciate it when people think I’m crazy or don’t have the Holy Spirit because I can’t stand Dan Schutte’s music


#61

Seriously??

If a man left the Catholic Faith because of a sarcastic comment made by a priest who was eating meat on a Friday, that’s nothing more than a pathetic excuse on the part of the guy…he obviously had much bigger issues with himself that he wasn’t about to disclose to your dad. Instead he decided to throw the blame of his leaving on a priest who made a snarky remark after doing something the guy didn’t agree with (you didn’t specify if this was during Lent or in the time after eating meat on Fridays was allowed in the US in ordinary time).


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