Anyone looking at the new Translations for the Mass?

Last week, the USCCB finally approved four of the pending translation changes. Has anyone looked?

USCCB announcement: usccb.org/comm/archives/2009/09-159.shtml
Link with the new translations: usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/index.shtml

Among the changes

[LIST]
*]“pro multis” has finally been changed to “for many”.
*]The response “and also with you” is now “and with your spirit”.
*]The “Domine nom sub dignis” after the ecce homo is now “Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.”
[/LIST]

Thoughts?

My only thought is that I’m going to have “temporal confusion issues” because it’ll be like I’m back in grades one through six again, (I started first grade in 1964 at which point Mass started being mostly in the vernacular.)

I guess I don’t have much else to say because I’ve known for some time that Church was restoring the concept of a literal translation of the Latin.

Well for or as long as I have been alive, I have always said “and also with you”; I haven’t heard it spoken any other way except in the Latin. I am all for correct translations but I think we have jumped the tracks here. Its one thing to change it, and another to have reason for changing it but how are you going to get people to change. For 30 some years I have been conditioned to say it one way and now when I finally feel like it’s the correct way to do things, they change it, Heaven help us.:slight_smile:

Excellent points and questions. There has been much debate about the “dynamic” translations that were used with the current liturgy which in some cases, like the translation of *pro multis *were simply erroneous. For a very long time, the ICEL has been trying to being the US Bishops into line with the English translations. It was seen as correcting mistakes, not change for change sake.

As for how these will be received, my guess is that it will be a mixed bag. Most priests will probably have some prepartions and Oregon Catholic Press (yuck!) will make a ton of money selling material intended to help with the transition. I think a few priests, you know the kind you see marching in gay pride pareades and attening the “ordination” women, will simply rebel and refuse to use the new Order of Mass and other changes. But the I think the number who rebel outright will be small. (Please pray that I am correct!)

It will take a little getting used to but after a few months, it will be okay. I remember it was two weeks after the election of Pope Benedict that one of the priests in my parish finally stopped saying “John Paul” during the prayers at consecration when we pray for the Pope and Bishop.

By the way, now is **not **the time to invest in a new missal if you can avoid it.

People managed to figure out how to stop saying, “And with thy spirit,” and start saying, “And also with you,” back in 1970. People today will figure out how to say, “And with your spirit.” The same thing goes for the other changes.

As to whether or not people are happy about the changes… Well, I guess that depends on the individuals.

By all means, people should d/l the texts from the appropriate sites, study them, and start getting used to them so they are not such a shock.

Note that the texts of the Gloria and Creed have been recast.

It won’t be that difficult to change…we go through a “training period” is all. How do you think we went through the dramatic changes from the Latin Mass to the NO? Now, that was a truly huge change and it was accomplished…in a short number of years.

My thoughts:

Am I misreading, or am I just not reading in the right place…it says the the PRIEST and DEACON distribute Holy Communion and makes no reference to Lay Persons. Could that also be a change? I certainly hope so.

There is also the change in the CREED and in the CONFETIOR… the creed … I believe…etc… and the I confess…with the striking of the breast… I think this is very important…and hopefully will help people to understand that they are sinners and need to be repentant.

The other stuff is wordage that hopefully takes us back to the original meanings of the Greek or Aramaic in which the Bible was written. That is important too… we need to understand what we are doing and why…

I like the changes… I only feel that there should have been a few more… St. Michael is still left out, for instance. :frowning:

I think the changes will be a bit more difficult than when we went from Latin to English. Back then we went from a language we did not know to a language we did know. Now, many people have the prayers memorized and will have to re-learn it. It just means I guess that people will have to have their noses in the missalettes for awhile…oh how I dislike missalettes (that’s a personal preference and does not apply to anyone elses use of them)

I like the changes, too, but the Prayer to Saint Michael is not part of the Liturgy.

Yes, I have been looking at them. I’ve written a book that will hopefully be published soon that deals with the parts of the Mass which the congregation says (or sings). I’m already working on a second book dealing with the priest’s prayers.

These books are mystagogical catecheses, the type of spiritual-liturgical instruction called for by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

No, the new General Instruction (which has been translated since 2002) for this Missal allows for extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.

People should already be striking their breast during the Confiteor, and making a profound bow during the Creed. If they’re not, it’s because a) they don’t know to, and b) the priest isn’t setting a good example by making these gestures himself!

That is glorious and credulous!

In French, Spanish, German, and Italian, they all say (in their own languages) “And with your spirit.” English was the only major vernacular language which didn’t translate it accurately!

The Church does have a reason to change it. The Church will “get people to change” by having her bishops teach the people. That was supposed to happen after Vatican II, and to a large extent, it never did. :frowning: I am trying to help teach people about the new translation of the Mass. (See my signature below.)

Can you imagine how people felt in the 1960’s?

But English speakers back then DID have to learn a new English translation. It was common to hear and respond in English in late 1964, (although people had been seeing the words in their missals for years before that.) The current translation, which I believe went into usage in 1970, was a SECOND change. After five years, the responses were pretty entrenched.

I guess you could argue that we older folks are more used to having to change what we say at Mass than younger people…:stuck_out_tongue:

Some of us never had to say anything before 1964 – dialog Mass wasn’t part of my parish’s experience – so just talking in church was very new to us. It’s true that we had to get used to another change in English in 1970 so I’ve had to learn the OF in French & in English in 1964 and then the English change in 1970. In this case some of the changes are almost a return to the 1964 translation.

In my humble opinion I think we’re playing semantics. Doesn’t saying “And with your spirit” mean the same as saying “And also with you”? :rolleyes:

Unless you are a Platonic dualist, it does not. It specificially address the charism of Holy Orders that the recipient possesses. But that charism does not define the person rather it is the specific recognition on the behalf of the faithful that the person ( the ‘you’), has something ( ‘the spirit’) that enables them to perform the ministry they are enacting.

The response Et cum spiritu tuo is only addressed to ordained ministers, never to a layman, so it can’t just mean “and also with you” as if to say “you too” or “right back atchya!”“And with your spirit.”

Another common response is made five times during the Mass: after the priest’s greeting at the beginning of Mass, right before the Gospel is read, during the Preface of the Eucharistic Prayer, at the Sign of Peace, and right before the final blessing. The older English translation of the Mass rendered it as “And also with you,” but the new translation properly conveys the true sense of this response:[INDENT]Et cum spíritu tuo.

And with your spirit. (Gal. 6:18; 2 Tim. 4:22)When the priest says “The Lord be with you,” he is not simply saying the religious equivalent of a secular “Good morning” or “How are you?” Our response, then, cannot be misunderstood as a “You too.” This greeting from the ordained minister and our response to him say more than any secular greeting or exchange of pleasantries can; the proper liturgical greeting also grounds the celebration of Mass firmly in the business of Heaven (the presence and power of God) rather than the business of earth (the weather and our personal dispositions). These words connect us to the sacred act we are participating in, drawing us out of our common worldly surroundings.

Why “your spirit” instead of “you”? ***** This question was addressed by the USCCB in the August 2005 issue of the newsletter of the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy:The expression et cum spiritu tuo is only addressed to an ordained minister. Some scholars have suggested that spiritu refers to the gift of the spirit he received at ordination. In their response, the people assure the priest of the same divine assistance of God’s spirit and, more specifically, help for the priest to use the charismatic gifts given to him in ordination and in so doing to fulfill his prophetic function in the Church. (Vol. XLI, question 7)Why does the priest say “The Lord be with you” rather than “The Lord is with you”? Twice in Scripture, an angel appears to someone with the greeting, “The Lord is with you.” (Judg. 6:12; Luke 1:28) These angels were delivering a message from God Himself. But there are also times in Scripture when a man says “The Lord is with you” and he turns out to be wrong! One such example is Nathan, a prophet during the reign of King David. (cf. 2 Sam. 7:3-4)

In the New Testament, only the Mother of the Lord is told that the Lord is with her; every other time the phrase is used (by St. Paul in his letters), he writes it as a prayer: “The Lord be with you.” The difference is that whereas the angel Gabriel had it on the highest authority (God) that the Lord was truly with the Blessed Virgin, St. Paul offers a prayer that the Lord be with his fellow Christians, rather than simply presume that He was. Therefore, the priest at Mass begs God for His presence with His people, and the faithful respond with the same prayer in mind.

  • “English is the only major language of the Roman Rite which did not translate the word spiritu. The Italian (E con il tuo spirito), French (Et avec votre esprit), Spanish (Y con tu espíritu) and German (Und mit deinem Geiste) renderings of 1970 all translated the Latin word spiritu precisely.” (USCCB Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy Newsletter, vol. XLI)

[RIGHT]Praying the Mass: The Prayers of the People, pp. 28-30[/RIGHT][/INDENT]

It was always in the TLM…and in this age, we must not forget him.

Both my husband and I were expecting the changes. When he started reading over the new translation, though, he was a bit shocked and upset at first because so much has changed. I expected it though. He understands now, it was just a shock. And he noted that he thinks there will be many who leave the Church because of it. I think that’s a bit of a stretch, but if they do, it’s just a matter of weeding the goats from the sheep anyway. Good, let 'em go! :rolleyes:

I think the new translation is better in that it conveys the meaning of the words more accurately to what is meant in saying them. Sure, I can say any of these things a number of ways, but when said properly, you “get it” better.

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