Anyone Reading From Conflict to Communion?

He was. He’s UCC now.

Haugen attended my alma mater, Luther College. It’s not surprising that he’s no longer Lutheran; the college certainly isn’t… :dts:

His “Holden Evening Prayer” is pretty to listen to, however. Makes a nice little prayer/devotion service at end of day.

I certainly understand - for me Augsburg would solve 95% of the problem.

Holden Evening Prayer is a good substitute for Vespers , but oddly enough I’ve been going to a confessional ELCA (yes they exit! flcws.org ) church every Wed for the old 1888’s Vespers and I’m beginning to see flaws in Holden Evening Prayer in that it’s a bit too heavy on describing God and not thanking God.

Fun bit of trivia: Many Lutheran pastors have told me that Holden is where all the nuttiness in the Lutheran world began to take form and shape in the 1960’s. Apparently you can draw a line form Holden -> Seminex - > ELCA -> Fabulousness™ .

They’re fine for a camp-fire with smores: they burn quite well as kindling to start the fire. :slight_smile:

On a brighter note…this parody of Haugen’s “Gather Us In” drivel is worth it.

Here in this place, our comfortable parish,
All of the statues carried away,
See in each face a vacuous visage,
Brought here by guilt or by R.C.I.A.

Gather us in, by Beemer or Hummer,
Gather us in, so we can feel good,
Come to us now in this barren Zen temple,
With only a shrub and an altar of wood.

We are the young, our morals a mystery,
We are the old, who couldn’t care less,
We have been warned throughout all of history,
But we enjoy this liturgical mess.

Gather us in, our radical pastor,
Gather us in, our unveiled nun,
Call to us now, with guitars and bongos,
Hang up your cellphones and join in the fun!

Here we will take some wine and some water,
Whether it changes, we really don’t care.
But when the Sign of Peace comes, our pastor,
Jumps from the altar and hugs like a bear.

Gather us in, uncatechized masses,
Gather us in, the liberal elite,
Help us to form our personal Credo,
Give us a choice between white bread and wheat.

One of our teens, she serves on the altar,
Our only other, he plays bass guitar.
Sister preaches in Crocs and a pantsuit,
She reads it straight to us from NCR.

Gather us in, the truly enlightened,
Gather us in, without dogmatic fuss.
We all eschew outdated religion,
Our god is our bellies, our worship is Us.

Agreed.

I believe it! I spent a month at Holden Village back in college. Part of an “Environmental Ethics” course. I’d love to take the ferry across Lake Chelan just to see the trees one more time, but not if it means suffering through those mandatory “intentional community” wannabe-worship atrocities. :nope: After the first “gathering” included a pastrix babbling on about the “Creator Mother’s ever-new creation made by her children,” I decided it’d be best if I simply observed from the balcony. I will say that the tea selection in the main building was outstanding. :thumbsup:

:rotfl::rotfl:

That’s magnificent - thanks for that!

:clapping: Bravo, good sir.

It’s interesting when a LCMS poster admits to attending Vespers in an ELCA parish. Do you also go to Mass and devotions to the Blessed Sacrament?

When it comes down to it, all Lutherans pray the same liturgy.

Holden Village is a retreat center that focuses on renewal of faith and contemporary expression in worship. Much of the great music and liturgical formats have come to us and Roman Catholics from Holden.

Why should it be? Confessional Lutheranism, where it exists, is Confessional Lutheranism. It is not confined to denominational lines; even the most ardent WELS defender would concede as much. That Confessional Lutheranism happens to be significantly obscured and less common in the ELCA does not mean that it does not exist in some rare, small, silenced and detested pocket of that denomination. I pray for their endurance.

Sure. Even Lutherans-in-name-only often use the same rubric for worship. Those that are truly Lutheran, however, attach certain shared meanings to the Divine Service.

You set back inter-Lutheran relations by decades. I don’t know of any LCMS member who would express your sentiments, thankfully. :frowning:

:slapfight: :popcorn:

Yes. The pastor reserves the Body and Blood from the Wed. Morning Mass, so we receive during Vespers.

When it comes down to it, all Lutherans pray the same liturgy.

I would say that Lutherans do pray the same liturgy, but would have a differing viewpoint on what makes a Lutheran and not Reformed.

Holden Village is a retreat center that focuses on renewal of faith and contemporary expression in worship. Much of the great music and liturgical formats have come to us and Roman Catholics from Holden.

That definition is true, but it leave a bit out, akin describing cancer as a clump of cells.

Now you know two. In our church, ELCA Lutherans are welcome to receive after speaking with the pastor in most cases. ELCA Reformed… not so much.

How so? By acknowledging that there are Lutherans faithful to the Confessions outside of my own LCMS and even within the ELCA? :ehh:

I don’t know of an LCMS pastor who would disagree with any of what I said.

Don

The parish Ben worships at and takes holy Communion is ELCA. The ELCA allows women clergy; who knows maybe one of the pastors at the parish Ben attends is a woman. The parish has open communion. The ELCA do not agree with the LCMS on Law and Gospel as it applies to sexuality.

Lutherans can’t just pick and choose a parish and ignore the Synod positions that the parish is affiliated with.

Actually, I am glad Ben goes to Vespers at the ELCA parish because it is Lutheran. I attend LCMS churches at family gatherings, take holy Communion without hesitation. But it is the LCMS that sets up barriers and condemns other Lutherans. The ELCA welcomes all Christians who are baptized and believe in the Real Presence to commune.

The ELCA has a range of viewpoints - some confessional, some less.

Of course, that may change as time goes by - the ‘liberal’ part of the ELCA has already tried to remove this good shepherd, but his congregation put up a fight and the synod backed down. This church knows it’s confessions, and reads the bible clearly.

In vespers we prayed for the leadership of the Church, as well as ELCA the local synod Bishop, and Bishop Elizabeth. They were true prayers - that God’s will be done.

Frankly, I was so impressed by the steadfastness of this church in the middle of such a storm that I was reminded that “Jesus walks among his enemies.” My LCMS pastor as well as the Catholic godparents of my third child have accepted invitations to go to Vespers with me - it will be a study on how to seek refuge in the Lord when the world is coming down around your ears.

My gut tells me there is some conjecture in your thought about Ben’s particular situation, here. I’m glad to read his response.

It is not the norm for LCMS members to commune at heterodox altars, but what makes a particular altar heterodox sometimes has little to do with denominational lines (as was my entire point in post #30). If an individual ELCA parish still clings to the good, old-fashioned, non-progressive beliefs of the Lutheran Confessions, it isn’t very heterodox, is it? If I understand ELCA church politick correctly, doesn’t that nonsense about respecting “bound consciences” (whatever that means :rolleyes:) provide for the existence of precisely such parishes - or was that simply a smoke-and-mirrors bluster to force a more liberal agenda?

Look, my whole point was that there are still good, faithful Confessional Lutherans within the ELCA - despite the best efforts of ELCA officials to radically transform/silence them. Where these Lutherans exist, we LCMS-ers find a natural kinship.

Yes, and my point is that unless we question every pastor & parishioner on what is “confessional” that we must be reasonable and assume that we would not be Lutherans unless we adhere to the Confessions. I would bet you that any ELCA parish near you celebrates holy Communion in precisely the way you are accustom to, that the sermon would be Gospel-centered and that the fellowship of believers would be friendly and genuine.

Unless I am missing something here, I have no idea what makes the ELCA parish Ben attends any different than any other Lutheran parish including the LCMS except that there is no announcement in the bulletin that non-Missouri Synod Lutherans must speak to the pastor before taking holy Communion.

I won’t even say that about the entirety of LCMS - they’re churches in the LCMS that are nuts, just this week, one just re-named itself “the Bridge” and is full on pants-on-head praise songs.

As for the ELCA falling down, Herchruch is sort of the go-to example, but I’ll select something closer to home:

Warning - partially nude gay-pride batman with enlarged cod-peice next to ELCA pastor.

opendoorelca.org

Unless I am missing something here, I have no idea what makes the ELCA parish Ben attends any different than any other Lutheran parish including the LCMS except that there is no announcement in the bulletin that non-Missouri Synod Lutherans must speak to the pastor before taking holy Communion.

So if I had to summarize why his ELCA church is different than some other ELCA churches in a short synapse: No cod-peices, no “goddess” worship, 1880’s liturgy, and an adherence to the Confessions.

For the last two weeks, I’ve prayed for this ELCA church, it’s members, and it’s pastor. And I’ll continue to do so for the next two weeks.

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