Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn't know God, just ask Ananias!


#1

There are many Scriptures which we are told that is so, and no matter how much people want to deny the fact, doesn’t change what the Scriptures tell us.

(Acts 5:1-6) “There was another man, however, called Ananias, His and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, ‘Peter said ‘how can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God.’ When he heard this Ananias fell down dead.”


#2

[quote=Giver]There are many Scriptures which we are told that is so, and no matter how much people want to deny the fact, doesn’t change what the Scriptures tell us. (Acts 5:1-6)
[/quote]

The truth is that this is nothing more than your errant interpretation of passage and that it in fact teaches no such thing. In comparing three different translations of this passage, (The Douay-Rheims Challoner, The NAB, and The RSV ) the context of this chapter in no way implies that Ananias and Sapphira were non believers. Moreover, since this is the first excommunication recorded in the church it is the more evident that they were indeed members of the church.

The idea that a Christian does not sin is your own interpretation (though you are joined by a small group of other errant souls), though I think that if we were to follow you around for a day or even a few hours that we’d find you stumbling into some sin. (Perhaps a shortness of patience and temper with a grandchild? An uncharitable thought about the Catholics that you just can’t seem to get through to with your message, or a judgemental attitude towards someone like me who can provide common sense from the Word of God to show the errors that you have embraced?)

You will point to your favorite passages from the 1st Epistle of St. John, but I will also offer something of his as well. from the 2nd chapter. “1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected; and by this we know that we are in him.”

Now the first verses that I underlined show plainly that John here is talking about sins committed by believers. What are these sins? The basics of all sins, disobedience, as the second vese above shows. This ties directly to verse 9 of the first chapter in which St. John says, “9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.” Note also the previous 2 verses, which have a direct bearing on this discussion: “7 But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” We MUST walk in the light, and continued obedience to the commandments of God to love Him with all that we are and to love our neighbor as ourselves. But do we all do that 24/7/365? Do you? (Rhetorical question of course.) And so when we fail, the all that St. John is teaching us here comes into play.

But there is more…another passage comes to mind in which Our Lord Himself teaches us concerning this very thing. Matthew 18:15-35.“15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. …35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.” Now since Jesus himself here speaks of our brother sinning against us and how to deal with that, it leaves no doubt that Our Lord was here speaking of sins by believers since nowhere in the Word of God does it say for us to take offenses by non-Christians before the church.

Cont’d


#3

Verse 18 here ties directly to St. John’s words in the Gospel. John 20:21-23. “21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

And the parallel passage in Matthew 16:17-19 “17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

Now you can assert what you please Robert, but as I’ve shown you before, you have been misled and are in error. Why would your personal revelations from “Jesus” contradict his Word, not to mention the teachings of the church that He Himself founded.

From what I have shown here. He did not.
Pax tecum,


#4

Yes, I have heard your excuses before and they are very lame. I don’t have time right now to address each one, but given some time latter on I will. I have to go to work.

What I will do, not necessarily for you- but to let all the others who happen to read all this- is post some of the Scriptures, which disputes your contentions that a person who knows God, can sin, tells us that you are wrong.

By the way yes there are sins that don’t lead to death, they are human faults that are not serious offences and are not deliberate or thought out. John says that all sins don’t lead to death. Everyone needs to understand that when a person is lead by the Holy Spirit they will not sin, and if they do they are dead.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(Romans 8: 5) “The unspiritual are interested only in what is unspiritual, but the spiritual are interested in spiritual things. It is death to limit oneself to what is unspiritual, life and peace can only come with concern for the spiritual.”

(Romans 8: 9 - 13) “Your interest, however are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made His home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to Him. Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; and if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then He who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit living in you.”

So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”


#5

If what you believe is true, then explain for us please what this passage is talking about.
**
Matthew 18:15-22**

15: "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
16: But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
17: If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
18: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19: Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
20: For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
21: Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?"
22: Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

Such forgiveness would not be necessary if Christians never sinned, would it?

Furthermore what then does St. James mean when he says,

James 5:14-16

14: Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. (Emphasis mine)
Pax tecum,


#6

[quote=Giver]Yes, I have heard your excuses before and they are very lame. I don’t have time right now to address each one, but given some time latter on I will. I have to go to work.

[/quote]

Good answer. :wink: How did you ever find time to post the rest of your post?:

What I will do, not necessarily for you- but to let all the others who happen to read all this- is post some of the Scriptures, which disputes your contentions that a person who knows God, can sin, tells us that you are wrong.

By the way yes there are sins that don’t lead to death, they are human faults that are not serious offences and are not deliberate or thought out. John says that all sins don’t lead to death. Everyone needs to understand that when a person is lead by the Holy Spirit they will not sin, and if they do they are dead.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(Romans 8: 5) “The unspiritual are interested only in what is unspiritual, but the spiritual are interested in spiritual things. It is death to limit oneself to what is unspiritual, life and peace can only come with concern for the spiritual.”

(Romans 8: 9 - 13) “Your interest, however are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made His home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to Him. Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; and if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then He who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit living in you.”

So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

:rolleyes:


#7

[quote=Giver]There are many Scriptures which we are told that is so, and no matter how much people want to deny the fact, doesn’t change what the Scriptures tell us.

(Acts 5:1-6) “There was another man, however, called Ananias, His and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, ‘Peter said ‘how can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God.’ When he heard this Ananias fell down dead.”
[/quote]

Robert,

There is “some” truth in what you say but the erroneous portions of your thoughts in this area have been shredded many times on many different threads. In spite of this you blindly go forward anyway without giving any thought to what the spirit filled Christians on these forums have been telling you. The quotes we give you from scripture are not lame. They are the inspired word of God and they are not excuses.

You should not start threads without thinking first. This thread is a perfect example. The thread title is: **Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn’t know God, just ask Ananias! **. You then give the quote from the book of Acts that describes the incident pertaining to Ananias and Sapphira.

Please note that the title of your thread is not on point with the content of the this incident in scripture. Ananias and Sapphira knew God. What they did was “lie to the Holy Spirit.” There is a difference between lying to the Holy Spirit and not knowing God, but you are unable to recognize it. You are blinded by your personal views to such a degree that you don’t even connect meaningful verses to your ideas.

Please try to be more circumspect and thoughtful. You think that you are hear to give something but you are wrong. The Holy Spirit has brought you to these forums to receive something. You must have a humble and open heart and a humble and open mind if you are to receive that which the Spirit is offering you in these discussions.


#8

Please explain to me how the two statements above are not contradictory. You have been insisting on other threads that Christians “don’t sin at all.” Now you state it again, but then you say that they do sin but only venially. Try saying it differently and logically and then we might find that we have common ground.

Please explain to me where John says that the “human faults” you refer to which are not serious offenses “are not deliberate or thought out.” You have made that up in your own head…it is not from scripture. Besides, couldn’t an objectively serious offense be committed that is neither “deliberate or thought out?” Please think about this.


#9

I guess I’m in trouble, so be it! There’s nothing I can do about it. I can’t snap my fingers then suddenly become 100% Faithful and full of Faith. So I will just continue my life, striving to be gracful. There’s no point in worrying about it if what giver says is true. So be it.


#10

[quote=Giver]Yes, I have heard your excuses before and they are very lame.

(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”
[/quote]

Please note that these verses do not say that a person that is a Christian will “never” commit a mortal sin. Instead the apostle is warning us about deadly sin. When John writes the epistle he is addressing it to Christians and he is warning them not to sin mortally and he is warning them of the consequences of sinning mortally. He is not saying that a Christian will never fall into such a sin. In fact, in the very last verse of John’s letter he gives this warning: “Little children, keep yourselves from idols.” Idolatry is a mortal sin. John would not warn them to keep themselves from idols if it were “impossible” for them to sin. You have simply misunderstood and misrepresented what John is saying.

It is right to state that by grace we are called and empowered to avoid mortal sin. It is right to say that a Christian can overcome mortal sin and never fall into it. It is wrong, however, to say that a Christian will “never” commit a mortal sin simply because they are a Christian.


#11

Robert,

I will again point out something to you that I stated on another thread. The first letter of John does not mean what you think it does concerning “not sinning.”

The apostle says in 1 John 2:1, “MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;”

The verse you quoted about “not sinning” is not an absolute. This is not my own idea and it is not simply a Catholic idea either. I refer you to the following from Morris Book Synopsis , a Protestant Commentary:

**"John also emphasized that we CAN be certain of our salvation. As long as one continually “walks in the light (truth) as he (Jesus) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth (i.e. continually) us from all sin” (1Jn 1:7). We must also continually admit our sinful condition (1Jn 1:9).

Can one who is “born of God” commit sin? Answer: certainly! However, it must NOT be habitual (1Jn 3:6, with the Greek present tense). If it is, then that sinner is in league with the Devil (1Jn 3:8)! The true Christian does not PRACTICE that kind of life (1Jn 3:9), though, at times, he or she may occasionally slip and fall." **

Please be advised that your understanding is unique to you and is not part of Christian teaching. You are in error.


#12

All sin damages our relationship with God (1John 5:17). Some sin damages it unto death. (1John 5:16b) In this case, the sinner would have none of God’s life and love within him and, I suppose, one could say that at that point “they do not know God” - but that is a rather imprecise way of putting it. They really do “know” God but they are not in a right relationship with him. Because they really still “know” God, they can, and do, seek forgiveness and can be in a right relationship with Him again. If they did not “know God” they would not know that they could and should seek forgiveness from Him.

Those who know God can, in fact, sin. Peter is an example … he knew God but sinned. Then he sought forgiveness and was returned to a right relationship with God.


#13

Could I ask for some clarification. Is the OP stating that Christians never sin? I am confused as I have never come across such a teaching. Does the OP have a different definition of sin then Catholics do?


#14

[quote=deb1]Could I ask for some clarification. Is the OP stating that Christians never sin? I am confused as I have never come across such a teaching. Does the OP have a different definition of sin then Catholics do?
[/quote]

OP?


#15

[quote=quasimodo]OP?
[/quote]

Original Poster. Sorry about that. I actually picked that up on this forum and have gotten into the habit of using the abbreviation.


#16

I can’t tell what Giver thinks. I have been told by another fellow (that sounds like him) that he “doesn’t practice sin.” What ever that means. It does sound like he thinks a Christian either can’t or won’t sin. Sounds like a skewed idea of either sin, being a Christian or both.


#17

[quote=Church Militant]The truth is that this is nothing more than your errant interpretation of passage and that it in fact teaches no such thing. In comparing three different translations of this passage, (The Douay-Rheims Challoner, The NAB, and The RSV ) the context of this chapter in no way implies that Ananias and Sapphira were non believers. Moreover, since this is the first excommunication recorded in the church it is the more evident that they were indeed members of the church.

The idea that a Christian does not sin is your own interpretation (though you are joined by a small group of other errant souls), though I think that if we were to follow you around for a day or even a few hours that we’d find you stumbling into some sin. (Perhaps a shortness of patience and temper with a grandchild? An uncharitable thought about the Catholics that you just can’t seem to get through to with your message, or a judgemental attitude towards someone like me who can provide common sense from the Word of God to show the errors that you have embraced?)

You will point to your favorite passages from the 1st Epistle of St. John, but I will also offer something of his as well. from the 2nd chapter. “1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected; and by this we know that we are in him.”

Now the first verses that I underlined show plainly that John here is talking about sins committed by believers. What are these sins? The basics of all sins, disobedience, as the second vese above shows. This ties directly to verse 9 of the first chapter in which St. John says, “9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.” Note also the previous 2 verses, which have a direct bearing on this discussion: “7 But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” We MUST walk in the light, and continued obedience to the commandments of God to love Him with all that we are and to love our neighbor as ourselves. But do we all do that 24/7/365? Do you? (Rhetorical question of course.) And so when we fail, the all that St. John is teaching us here comes into play.

But there is more…another passage comes to mind in which Our Lord Himself teaches us concerning this very thing. Matthew 18:15-35.“15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. …35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.” Now since Jesus himself here speaks of our brother sinning against us and how to deal with that, it leaves no doubt that Our Lord was here speaking of sins by believers since nowhere in the Word of God does it say for us to take offenses by non-Christians before the church.

Cont’d
[/quote]

(Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira: Peter said they were lying to the Holy Spirit so I would say they were filled with the Holy Spirit, and knew God. This Scripture illustrates what happens when a person who knows God willfully and deliberately commit a sin. Of course it isn’t always a physical death, but it is death. God showed us way back I (Exodus 32:28)”The sons of Levi carried out the command of Moses, and of the people about three thousand men perished that day.”

If anyone knows God there is no way he or she would deliberately commit a sin.
Giver


#18

[quote=quasimodo]All sin damages our relationship with God (1John 5:17). Some sin damages it unto death. (1John 5:16b) In this case, the sinner would have none of God’s life and love within him and, I suppose, one could say that at that point “they do not know God” - but that is a rather imprecise way of putting it. They really do “know” God but they are not in a right relationship with him. Because they really still “know” God, they can, and do, seek forgiveness and can be in a right relationship with Him again. If they did not “know God” they would not know that they could and should seek forgiveness from Him.

Those who know God can, in fact, sin. Peter is an example … he knew God but sinned. Then he sought forgiveness and was returned to a right relationship with God.
[/quote]

You should know, when Peter denied Jesus he only knew Jesus as a special man. He was given full knowledge that Jesus was God after he received the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit can give us the grace and strength to with stand Satan.
Giver


#19

Well maybe you could tell that to the father of lies, who knew God better than you or I, and to his legions who knew God as-well.


#20

[quote=Eireann]Well maybe you could tell that to the father of lies, who knew God better than you or I, and to his legions who knew God as-well.
[/quote]

Satan is dead right? Isn’t being in Hell death? If someone who knows God sins, he or she will go to Hell, if it is a sin leading to death.


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