Apologetics:hard And Soft Approach


#1

for some reason I feel compelled(maybe its the Holy Spirit: please God) to stress the point that those of us engaging in apologetics need to take the “hard” (AT TIMES)approach–what do I mean by the hard approach??? The hard approach means laying it on the line sometimes and leting someone know thaT THEIR SOUL IS IN DANGER OF GOING TO HELL BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT A CATHOLIC–particularly if they have been exposed to the faith–THIS GOES FOR YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS,BEST FREINDS AND ALL OTHERS WHO AREN’T CATHOLIC–we all know Jesus was compassionate --woman caught in adultery, father forgive them, lazarus --etc etc—but at other times he was downright confrontational and nasty–READ LUKE 11: 37 -TO THE END OF THE CHAPTER READ IT IT WILL OPEN YOUR EYES!!! LET ME LAY IT ON LINE FOR YOU PEOPLE–IF YOU DONT REALIZE THAT YOUR NON CATHOLIC FREINDS RUN THE RISK OF GOING TO HELL AND YOU ARE NOT CONCERNED WITH THEIR SOULS GUEES WHAT YOU YOURSELF MAYBE IN DANGER—SO GET TO IT!!!


#2

I agree.


#3

[quote=marineboy]for some reason I feel compelled(maybe its the Holy Spirit: please God) to stress the point that those of us engaging in apologetics need to take the “hard” (AT TIMES)QUOTE]

You disingenously sound as though you JUST NOW got a prompting from the Holy Spirit to do this, when in reality, it’s all you ever talk about on these forums…

A) Everyone who reads Marineboys posts regarding the state of our faithful Protestant brothers and sisters souls should also read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They diverge somewhat.

B) We should take a leaf from our current pope’s methods. See this thread: forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=54664.

Yes, Marineboy, that would be HH Pope Benedict XVI.
[/quote]


#4

Marineboy you did notice that Jesus dealt with different people in different ways,right?Do you want to know why:hmmm: BECAUSE IF YOU TALK TO SOME PEOPLE THE WAY YOU COME ACROSS ON THESE THREADS YOU WILL RUN THEM AWAY FROM THE CHURCH AND THAT WILL BE ON YOU!:mad: Please, ask for the gift of discernment thenyou will know when to be gentle and when to be abrasive:nope:


#5

jKIRK NICE TRY BUT THEY(ccc and me) DONT DIFFER–THEY (ccc)MAY STATE IT NICER THAN i DO BUT THE CONTENT IS THE SAME---- and by the way why are you so quick to quote the catechism-----???(which i have no problem with) why dont u quote Boniface VIII unam sanctum or trent or FLORENCE–OR LATERAN IV?? IF pROTESATANTS CAN BE SAVED IN THEIR RELIGION WHY EVEN DO APOLOGETICS ??? I MEAN WHO CARES IF THEY CAN BE SAVED IN THEIR CHURCHES–??-i have said this time and time again-----A PROTESTANT MUST BE INVINCIBLY IGNORANT OF THE ONE TRUE FAITH OR HIS IGNORANCE MUST REDUCE HIS SIN (OF NOT ENTERING THE FAITH) TO VENIAL AND HE MUST HAVE NO OTHER MORTAL SIN ON HIS SOUL-----THAT’S ALOT OF IF’S!!! SO KIRKY --if you want to hug and kiss their heresey go ahead i certainly am not ever gonna that aND I PRAY OUR NEW PONTIFF MAKES SOME STRONG STATMENTS IN THIS REGARD–PLEASE GOD!!!


#6

LISA MY POINT EXACTLY— I didnt say in every case–but you people I bet never use the hard approach or never lay it on line—YOU CAN Say you do all you want but i know your kind and i bet you never ever do-----what are you gonna say on judment day when Jesus asks you “why didnt you ever mention to them that they might go to hell?” you will hANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME!!! THINK ABOUT THAT!!! YOU SHOULD BE SCARED


#7

sigh As my mother always says, it’s what you say *and *how you say it. There’s a difference between speaking the truth in a gentle manner and hammering away at people. I think you need to ask yourself why you feel so compelled to lay it on the line and inform people they’re going to hell. Is it really out of concern for their souls? If so, take the time and trouble to speak to them in a manner they might actually listen to. Telling them they’re going to hell or speaking to them in a holier than thou manner is counter - productive because it just makes people resent you AND your message.

What did St. Francis say – something like, “Preach the gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.”


#8

[quote=marineboy]LISA MY POINT EXACTLY— I didnt say in every case–but you people I bet never use the hard approach or never lay it on line—YOU CAN Say you do all you want but i know your kind and i bet you never ever do-----what are you gonna say on judment day when Jesus asks you “why didnt you ever mention to them that they might go to hell?” you will hANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME!!! THINK ABOUT THAT!!! YOU SHOULD BE SCARED
[/quote]

Marineboy don’t you start preesuming what approach I take with people:mad: What do you mean “my kind”?:banghead: I want you to know alot of Protestants come here searching for Truth and when they find your threads it will run them away!Why? It is because you are presuming to be the judge of their souls and their relatives that may have passed on:mad: While you glorify Gods justice you will do well to remember His MERCY:tsktsk:


#9

I Agree We Should Say It In A Respectful Maneer–but Please Say It----you People Will Say You Say It But Do You Really Say It??? Hmmmmmmmmm I Doubt It!!


#10

[quote=marineboy]jKIRK NICE TRY BUT THEY(ccc and me) DONT DIFFER–THEY (ccc)MAY STATE IT NICER THAN i DO BUT THE CONTENT IS THE SAME---- and by the way why are you so quick to quote the catechism-----???(which i have no problem with) why dont u quote Boniface VIII unam sanctum or trent or FLORENCE–OR LATERAN IV?? IF pROTESATANTS CAN BE SAVED IN THEIR RELIGION WHY EVEN DO APOLOGETICS ??? I MEAN WHO CARES IF THEY CAN BE SAVED IN THEIR CHURCHES–??-i have said this time and time again-----A PROTESTANT MUST BE INVINCIBLY IGNORANT OF THE ONE TRUE FAITH OR HIS IGNORANCE MUST REDUCE HIS SIN (OF NOT ENTERING THE FAITH) TO VENIAL AND HE MUST HAVE NO OTHER MORTAL SIN ON HIS SOUL-----THAT’S ALOT OF IF’S!!! SO KIRKY --if you want to hug and kiss their heresey go ahead i certainly am not ever gonna that aND I PRAY OUR NEW PONTIFF MAKES SOME STRONG STATMENTS IN THIS REGARD–PLEASE GOD!!!
[/quote]

You are without a doubt the rudest person that is still permitted to post on these forums.

I quote the CCC because it expands upon and clarifies Boniface, Unam Sanctum, Trent, Florence, and Lateran IV. You DO contradict the CCC because you’re interpretation of EENS is a Feeneyite one. If you would read the CCC, invincible ignorance is NOT in the section about our seperated brethren, it’s in the section about those who are NOT Christian AT ALL. Different birds altogether. Also, recall what it takes to commit mortal sin. You cannot do it accidentally and many, if not most, of the devout Protestants of my aquaintance lead Godly lives, loving and following Christ. Why apologetics? To be ready to give a defence for the hope that lies within us, as Saint Paul said, to educate and clarify, to dispel ignorance and show forth the Truth that is contained in its fullness in the Catholic Church. They are united to us, whether they will or not, by their baptism and their faith in Christ, “certain, though imperfect.” I’m not hugging or kissing any heresy. You’ve no idea who I am or how I’ve defended the Church, so climb down off your arrogant high-horse. I linked you to a story about the way our Holy Father is going about ecumenism and evangelization, you would do well to copy him, not Father Feeney. Do Holy Mother Church a favor…don’t do any apologetics on Her behalf. You’re ill-informed, ill-prepared, and you can only have the opposite of the desired effect, as Lisa said. You will drive people from the Church. Christ said,“If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.” If we lift Him up, he’ll deal with the rest. For other people curious about this issue and Marineboy’s obsession with it, I urge you to search all posts begun by him. You can do so by clicking on his name. He’s been answered repeatedly. It’s the same rehash, over and over and over again.


#11

We should strive to point out truths without appearing to judge the heart. While one shouldn’t try to water down the faith,
Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

1 Peter 3:15


#12

JKirkLVNV,

I think the name calling is a little too much. There are many who form their opinions and then take older documents out of their historical context to support pre-conceived notions. We all have our Catechisms and faith in the Magisterium of the Church. We are not taken in so easily by such ideas. So be at peace.

Speaking of being at peace, marineboy also should chill a little. Yes, I have family in danger of hell, but so are you and so am I. Let he who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. We all must run the race to the last mile or we, too, may lose our reward.

As to methodology, a person may win and arguement only to lose a soul. If one is truly concerned about others, effectiveness will matter.

The truth can be spoken in love or arrogance and still remain truth.


#13

[quote=pnewton]JKirkLVNV,

I think the name calling is a little too much. There are many who form their opinions and then take older documents out of their historical context to support pre-conceived notions. We all have our Catechisms and faith in the Magisterium of the Church. We are not taken in so easily by such ideas. So be at peace.

Speaking of being at peace, marineboy also should chill a little. Yes, I have family in danger of hell, but so are you and so am I. Let he who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. We all must run the race to the last mile or we, too, may lose our reward.

As to methodology, a person may win and arguement only to lose a soul. If one is truly concerned about others, effectiveness will matter.

The truth can be spoken in love or arrogance and still remain truth.
[/quote]

Pnewton with all due respect marineboy is being rude and condescending,he said to JKirk"so KIRKYif you want to hug and kiss there heresy go ahead i am not":nope: Then he goes here

"LISA MY POINT EXACTLY— I didnt say in every case–but you people I bet never use the hard approach or never lay it on line—YOU CAN Say you do all you want but i know your kind and i bet you never ever do-----what are you gonna say on judment day when Jesus asks you “why didnt you ever mention to them that they might go to hell?” you will hANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME!!! THINK ABOUT THAT!!! YOU SHOULD BE SCARED"
He has even presumed to know my judgement:nope: God converts the heart,none of us here tries to hide the truth,but to approach people like this is mean and yes it is rude.It will run people away,over and over I and others have attempted to explain this to him:(


#14

You know, Lisa, this thread is a good illustration of the point at hand. Which approach is best? I am a believer that we need not make our faith as ugly as possible by our own arrogance and condescension, in a so-called hard (“harsh” is a better word) approach.

I know what it is like to get ticked off and post stronger than I should. There is a way to “turn the other cheek” to an insult. This place is a good way to practice in a somewhat safe environment.

If someone is being rude, ignorant, heretical etc., what better way of making the point than letting it work out to the logical conclusion. (i.e., give enough rope to hang themself). Pointing it out does not accomplish as much as self-discovery. I am referring both to apogetics and here.

If you think I was unfair to Jkirk or yourself, I apologize.


#15

[quote=pnewton]You know, Lisa, this thread is a good illustration of the point at hand. Which approach is best? I am a believer that we need not make our faith as ugly as possible by our own arrogance and condescension, in a so-called hard (“harsh” is a better word) approach.

I know what it is like to get ticked off and post stronger than I should. There is a way to “turn the other cheek” to an insult. This place is a good way to practice in a somewhat safe environment.

If someone is being rude, ignorant, heretical etc., what better way of making the point than letting it work out to the logical conclusion. (i.e., give enough rope to hang themself). Pointing it out does not accomplish as much as self-discovery. I am referring both to apogetics and here.

If you think I was unfair to Jkirk or yourself, I apologize.
[/quote]

Pnewton I love your posts you are very kind this was probably unfair in that the thread starter does these post frequently but this one is mild in comparrison to others.We are just frustrated and do not want protestants to run far away from te forum because of this kind of thing.We always answer so people will know they are welcome without feeling judged.There are so many things people do not know of our wonderful faith,I just do not want to see people run off by this kind of thing.We are just frustrated we love you pnewton,and we love you too marineboy,as a former protestant I just wish you would listen to us:nope:


#16

All we can do is live and speak the Truth and let the Holy Spirit work from there. You can’t make someone convert, they have to be open to God’s graces. Not having the fullness of the Truth is definitely an obstacle to salvation, but not an impediment. A Protestant obviously has less obstacles than say a Hindu.

Being raised in a different faith will definitely make it easier to ignore or suppress the graces from the Holy Spirit that draw us to the fullness of Truth. If a Protestant person were to learn of the faith and deep down be led by the Spirit to believe it to be true, but remains Protestant because the status quo is more comfortable, that person might be in trouble. It all depends on whether they are Protestant through their own fault. I think most however, are following the graces they are given.

Here are some good articles from This Rock on salvation and invincible ignorance.

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9111chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp


#17

suggest Search and Rescue by Patrick Madrid as required reading for any prospective apologist. We don’t need more angry crusaders out there doing more harm than good for the church, the people they attack and themselves. Anything we do in evangelizing has to be done with love and in and through the Church. Lone Rangers and vigilantes are loose cannons on the ship of Peter.


#18

Are marineboy and Misericordie the same person?


#19

Thanks, PNewton, for the fraternal correction. I was ticked off when I posted, with my fingers flying faster than my brain, as I think the typos can bear witness. It’s just extremely frustrating when he posts the same stuff over and over. I find myself think,“I won’t respond,” then I feel like I have to do so, in case some innocent should stumble across his misleading posts. He doesn’t represent Catholic teaching in its fullness. Nonetheless, I could have counted to 100 before I posted. And thanks, Lisa, for your swift defense!!!


#20

On Relevant Radio yesterday afternoon I listened to a call in show. The guest was a Jesuit who has worked for and I believe is still working for the pope. I apologize that I missed his title or position, but he seems to have quite a bit of contact with, and knowledge of, Benedict XVI.

I’m sure I’ll misquote but hopefully the context will be correct…anyway, he was barraged with questions very similar to the constant speculation on this forum that the new pope is somehow going to come down hard, root out all liturgical abuses, hang dissident bishops, tell it like it is, and by his iron fist for the truth all things will be perfect, etc…

He seemed a little exasperated to me by the questions and he gave an answer that I thought was rather poignant and befitting to the majority of the discourse here. He said that we have to remember that winning intellectual battles and theological arguments is not the main objective of the Pope. Continuing, he said that, afterall, many different theological positions have merit. The Pope is primarily a shepherd. He guides the sheep into the fold and seeks out the lost and strayed.

Heavy handed methods to prove we’re right seem to dominate many threads, even the ones intended to prove who is the best catholic among us. This is one of the reasons I feel very badly about steering a NC friend to this forum. She mainly felt confused by it all and has backed off of inquiry because of the “is your church doing it right?” stuff. She says it’s the same self righteous c*** she was trying to get out of as a protestant.

I think I’ll just give her books and eat some humble pie.


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