Apologetics help, please! Mary's "Omnipotence'


#1

Please help me with some good thoughts on addressing a sincere (though somwhat militant) question of an Evandgelical who wants to know why several saints (like Liguori and also Bonadventrue) refer to Our Lady as “omnipotent”, all powerful to save sinners and all powerful to obtain pardon. Liguoiri said, “At the command of Mary, all obey, even God”.

These are hard sayings for a Protestant!


#2

[quote=Eliza10]Please help me with some good thoughts on addressing a sincere (though somwhat militant) question of an Evandgelical who wants to know why several saints (like Liguori and also Bonadventrue) refer to Our Lady as “omnipotent”, all powerful to save sinners and all powerful to obtain pardon. Liguoiri said, "At the command of Mary, all obey, even God".

These are hard sayings for a Protestant!
[/quote]

Yikes! That’s a hard saying for this Catholic. :confused:

I believe God may “obey” as in grant Mary’s request… but He doesn’t have to. He is God. Mary isn’t.


#3

It would be good to see these quotes before commenting on them. My innitial reaction is that Mary and the Saints are in Heaven. As such, they desire only what is in accord with Our Lord. It’s a bit tough to “command” someone to do what they want/plan to do anyhow.


#4

[quote=Eliza10]Please help me with some good thoughts on addressing a sincere (though somwhat militant) question of an Evandgelical who wants to know why several saints (like Liguori and also Bonadventrue) refer to Our Lady as “omnipotent”, all powerful to save sinners and all powerful to obtain pardon. Liguoiri said, “At the command of Mary, all obey, even God”.

These are hard sayings for a Protestant!
[/quote]

It is difficult to respond without knowing the context of these remarks. With respect to the last comment that even God obeys Mary, one only has to look at Acts 2:51 to know that this is true in some sense:

51And he [Jesus Christ, God the Son incarnate] went down with them [Joseph and Mary] and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.


#5

[quote=Todd Easton]It is difficult to respond without knowing the context of these remarks. With respect to the last comment that even God obeys Mary, one only has to look at Acts 2:51 to know that this is true in some sense:

51And he [Jesus Christ, God the Son incarnate] went down with them [Joseph and Mary] and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.

[/quote]

I have to diagree that this verse supports the thought that God now “obeys” Mary in heaven… otherwise we’d have to also say that God would also do as Joseph commands? So Mary & Jospeph are in charge in heaven?

No, rather this verse is telling us that Jesus obeyed his parents as a child… which almost goes withoust saying since he was perfect.


#6

Jesus also ‘obeyed’ Mary at the wedding feast at Cana…

i personally think a better way to put it today might be that
Mary is in accord with the Father, the Son, and the
Holy Spirit… which we all should be…

:slight_smile:


#7

[quote=Eliza10]Please help me with some good thoughts on addressing a sincere (though somwhat militant) question of an Evandgelical who wants to know why several saints (like Liguori and also Bonadventrue) refer to Our Lady as “omnipotent”, all powerful to save sinners and all powerful to obtain pardon. Liguoiri said, “At the command of Mary, all obey, even God”.

These are hard sayings for a Protestant!
[/quote]

Why don’t you just be honest and tell him that if these things were ever actually said of Mary those who said them were just plain wrong? “Omnipotent” is a divine attribute which can be predicated to no creature. Mary has no power, whatsoever, to save sinners or to pardon sins. And that Mary has no legal right to command anyone to “obey” her. Let him know that the notion of God obeying her is nothing less than pagan in nature. Unless you, yourself, believe these (Edited uncharitable adjective) statements. Do you?

Blessings,
Bene


#8

Here’s some quotations. I’ve emboldened the last sentence of the second (long) quotation because it seems to make clear just what is meant if Mary is called “omnipotent”. There’s lots more about Mary from these pages but from the highlighted sentence it is easy to see that when Liguori calls Mary omnipotent, it is a very different thing to our normal meaning when we think of God as omnipotent. Perhaps he could have found a less confusing word.

First from this page: doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/TDAM.html

17 Jesus, Who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though of course it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is so only by grace. But that she is so is evident from the fact that, whatever the Mother asks for, the Son never denies her…This is know from what occurred at the marriage feast of Cana in Galilee. When the wine failed, the most Blessed Virgin, being moved to compassion at the sight of the affliction and shame of the bride and bridegroom, asked her Son to relieve them by a miracle, telling Him that they had no wine . Jesus answered, Women, what is that to you and Me? My hour is not yet come (John 2:4)…Mary, who well knew her privilege, although her Son seemed to have refused her the favor, yet told them to fill the jars with water, as if her request had already been granted. And so it was; for Jesus, to content His Mother, changed the water into the best wine. But how is this? As the time for working miracles was that of the public life of our Lord…Yet from all eternity God had determined that nothing that she asked should ever be refused the divine Mother…That is the sense in which Saint John Chrysostom (+407) understood it; he says that, “Through Jesus answered thus, yet in honor of His Mother He obeyed her request.” (In Jn.,hom. 21) This is confirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas (+1274), who says that by the words, My hour is not yet come, Jesus intended to show, that had the request come from any other, He would not then have complied with it; but because it was addressed to Him by His Mother, He could not refuse it. St Cyril (+444) and St. Jerome (+420), quoted by Barrada, say the same thing. Also Gaudavensis, on the foregoing passage of St. John, says that “to honor His Mother, Our Lord anticipated the time for working miracles” (In Conc. Ev., c.17) Liguori.

From this page (the “Glories of Mary” by Liguori):

sanpiodapietrelcina.org/english/glories.htm

“At the command of Mary, everybody obeys, even God.” Saint Bernardine of Siena is not afraid to utter this sentence, meaning thereby, of course, that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. And so Saint Anselm addresses her, saying: “Our Lord, O holy Mary, has exalted you to such an extent that by his favor all things that are possible to him should be possible to you!” “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. Yes, Mary is omnipotent, remarks Richard of Saint Lawrence, for by every law the queen enjoys the same privileges as the king. And since the power of a son and that of a mother are the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son. “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, "God has placed the whole Church not only under the patronage, but also under the dominion of Mary."
Since the mother, then, should have the same power as the son, Jesus, who is omnipotent, has also made Mary omnipotent; though, of course, it is always true that, while Jesus is omnipotent by nature, Mary is omnipotent only by grace. But that she is so appears from the fact that, whatever the mother asks for, the son never denies her. This was revealed to Saint Bridget. One day she heard Jesus talking to Mary and saying: “Ask me for whatever you wish, for whatever you desire will not be denied you.” As if he had said: “My Mother, you know how much I love you, so you may ask me for anything you wish. It is not possible for me to refuse you.” And he gave this beautiful reason: “Because you never denied me anything on earth, I will not deny you anything in heaven.” Mary, then, is called omnipotent in the sense in which such a term can be applied to a creature who is incapable of a divine attribute; that is, she is omnipotent because she obtains by her prayers whatever she wishes.


#9

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this.

No I cannot say they are wrong because St. Liguoiri and others have said some flowery, hard-to-realize things about Mary. They are hard to realize yet when I read them I see that there is no error, only that the choice of words surprising.

Below is quote from the person I am responding to and her sources. I wouldn’t respond to her if I did not think there was some sincerity to the question, also at least one or two others are interested in the answer.

I wish I could include a link but its a member-only group, the group topic being one particular to Evangelicalism - discussing a certain ministry), and this is a related, also member-only off-topic group (to keep the main group on topic). The writers on the forum are generally sincere faithful thoughtful Bible-believers seeking to understnad the Word.

This writer made some stong Catholic misstatements, which led to some heated back and forth, particularly about Boettner, then Keating, and finally we left the topic of Boettner who is not worth my time, particlarly since frankly Keating deals so thoroughly with the topic as to have closed the subject.

Now we have arrived at the point where she has some real questions which I am fielding as I can. Only some others are chiming in with more points! It seems so much i feel at times ike backing out as I am truly the reluctant apologist. Yet Christ said don’t hide your light under a bushel basket, so i wont. I heard on EWTN radio last night some apologist tips, particularly to just take your time one subject at a time (even though they are overwhleming me with many) till the subjects is satisfied. SO that is what I am doing. But I think I will bring a thing or two here for help. I have already written quite a bit.

So the subject at hand is Mary’s “omnipotence”. Sounds blasphemous, but we know those who said it aren’t. I am looking now at the link to slow down and get a grasp of the topic.

I will put the quotes and link in the next email in case I run out of space.


#10

Asteroid,
While I can appreicate what you’ve posted - I can honestly say that is still a difficult concept to accept. It seems to place Mary on the same level as God.

Is it necessary for a Catholic to believe that what the Saints said is true? Or can we respectfully disagree?


#11

It looks like “asteroid” just posted much of what I was about to post, but I will post the quote from our discussion anyway. At the bottom the questioner comments on these quotes and poses her question :

Quotes from Liguori’s The Glories of Mary

“All power is given to thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth, and
nothing is impossible to thee, who canst raise those who are in
despair to the hope of salvation.” (p.154)

“Thou art the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and
with God thou needest no other recommendation; for thou art the
Mother of true life.” (p.155)

“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” (p.155)

“Yes, Mary is omnipotent.” (p.155)

“God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but
even under the dominion of Mary.” (p.155)

[/font]http://www.ourladyweb.com/forum/index.php?topic=931.0

And here we say, that although Mary, now in heaven, can no longer
command her Son, nevertheless her prayers are always the prayers of a
Mother, and consequently most powerful to obtain whatever she
asks. “Mary,” says Saint Bonaventure, “has this great privilege, that
with her Son she above all the Saints is most powerful to obtain
whatever she wills.”

And why? Precisely for the reason on which we have already touched,
and which we shall later on again examine at greater length, because
they are the prayers of a mother. And therefore, says Saint Peter
Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven
and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to
confidence; and he addresses her in these words: “All power is given
to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee,
who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.”"

And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us
from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy,
at which sinners obtain pardon), "her Son esteems her prayers so
greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it
seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen
than a handmaid. Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother,
who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all
that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint
Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “Thou art the Mother
of God, and all powerful to save sinners, and with God thou needest
no other recommendation; for thou art the Mother of true life.” —
From Glories of Mary, Chapter VI.

[/font]http://www.marys-touch.com/Glories/ChVI.htm

“Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of St. Laurence; "for the
queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,"
he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a
mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son” (“Eisdem privilegiis
secundum leges gaudent Rex et Regina. Cum autem eadem sit potestas
Matris et Filii ab omnipotente Filio omnipotens Mater est effecta”—De
Laud B. M. l. 4). “And thus,” says St. Antoninus, “God has placed
the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the
dominion of Mary” (“Sub protectione ejus et dominio”—P. 4, t. 15, c.
20, #2).

Now this link goes on to say that Jesus is omnipotent by nature, but
Mary, by the grace of God.

I was always taught that the three “Os” are reserved for God alone –
omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.

Is this true? In one aspect of the divine nature, omnipotence, is
God willing to share it with a creature? Or is this not, though they
deny it, in essence saying Mary is now on par with God as far as
power goes?

And even though I read “Mary isn’t God (even though they have just
said she’s omnipotent),” then what is the difference?

I believe omnipotence is reserved for God alone, and that it is an
attribute He shares with no creature.

I also believe that Mary is not “all-powerful to save sinners,” and
that this language also makes her equal with God, and although we are
assured that is not what they mean, I can take no other meaning from
it.


#12

[quote=carol marie]Asteroid,
While I can appreicate what you’ve posted - I can honestly say that is still a difficult concept to accept. It seems to place Mary on the same level as God.

Is it necessary for a Catholic to believe that what the Saints said is true? Or can we respectfully disagree with the attitude of, “I’ll find out for sure when I get to heaven?”
[/quote]

Mary is not on the same level as God, and there is nothing in the lives of these holy saints to suggest that they thought that she was, as they were orthodox Catholics. It helps to understand that language changes with time; flowery language was much more common in certain periods. Also, what these saints say has to be in context of their lives and their beliefs: if they are focusing on Mary in their writing because they have a particular devotion to her that they wish to share, why does it follow that they believed that she was equal to God? If I write about my love for my spouse, does that mean I’m making them equal to God? I think it’s destructive to take this out of the context of the saints’ lives. Also, the idea of the queen mother is biblical—Bathsheba is bowed to by Solomon when she enters the room, and he grants her requests.

And yes, you can ignore the saints’ writings if you wish.


#13

Now this link goes on to say that Jesus is omnipotent by nature, but Mary, by the grace of God.

I was always taught that the three “Os” are reserved for God alone –
omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.

Is this true? In one aspect of the divine nature, omnipotence, is
God willing to share it with a creature? Or is this not, though they
deny it, in essence saying Mary is now on par with God as far as
power goes?

And even though I read “Mary isn’t God (even though they have just said she’s omnipotent),” then what is the difference?

I believe omnipotence is reserved for God alone, and that it is an
attribute He shares with no creature.

I also believe that Mary is not “all-powerful to save sinners,” and
that this language also makes her equal with God, and although we are assured that is not what they mean, I can take no other meaning from
it.

It is true that only God by nature IS the the Os. He cannot be other than he is. What he grants to the Saints in heaven is granted because of three things:

  1. They have been perfected in grace and so cannot oppose God’s will.

  2. God has exalted them. Note, it is God who exalts not the saint or us, but God. What God exalts cannot be diminished by anyone.

  3. Most importantly, God allows himself to be “commanded” by Mary because of her great love for him that manifested itself in her life of perfection and service in love while she was on earth. So, it is love that compels God to grant her all her requests, not that he has to or that she has become intrinsically the three Os.

God is still God, but he shares his power with whomever he pleases. And one day we too will share in God’s power in heaven. We know this because St. Paul tells us we will rule over the angels. We will rule as co-heirs with Christ.


#14

[quote=carol marie]Asteroid,
While I can appreicate what you’ve posted - I can honestly say that is still a difficult concept to accept. It seems to place Mary on the same level as God.

Is it necessary for a Catholic to believe that what the Saints said is true? Or can we respectfully disagree?
[/quote]

We’re always free to disagree with a Saint. A Saint is not infallible or impeccable. They make/made mistakes.

Or in this case we could consider that one word seems to be being used to mean two things:

One meaning is for God alone - omnipotent by vitue of being who he is and able to do things like create the universe.

One meaning is for Mary - omnipotent by virtue only of grace and by the fact that God, who is omnipotent in himself, will answer all her prayers, since those prayers are utterly in line with his will, with an affirmative response.

That’s my 5 minute summation, but it’s all new to me. I hadn’t come across the use of the word before. Then again I can see that a lot of things Catholics call, or have called, Mary would be blasphemous if misunderstood and it takes me a great effort to understand properly. (eg mother of God, worship of Mary)


#15

Is it possible for anyone in heaven to pray contray to God’s will? Are those in heaven in the state where they see cleary?
Romans 8, has the holy spirit praying for us when we are not sure how to pray or what to pray, is it possible that they are fully in agreement prayer wise with the holy spirit?

If you can answer No, Yes, and Yes then Mary need not be all powerful or all knowing in and of herself, but can have the appearance of being such by virtue of where she is at in the spiritual lifecycle.

Just a protestant pondering here.


#16

SO great is the authority that mothers possess over their sons, that even if they are monarchs, and have absolute dominion over every person in their kingdom, yet never can mothers become the subjects of their sons. It is true that Jesus now in Heaven sits at the right of the Father, enjoying that distinction even as Man because of the hypostatic union with the Person of the Divine Word.

He has supreme dominion over all and also over Mary; nevertheless, it can always be said that for a time at least, when He was living in this world, He was pleased to humble himself and be subject to Mary. Says St. Ambrose, Jesus Christ having deigned to make Mary His Mother, inasmuch as He was her Son, He was truly obliged to obey her. And for this reason, says Richard of St. Laurence, "Of other Saints we say that they are with God; but of Mary alone can it be said that she was so far favored as to be not only herself submissive to the will of God, but even that God was subject to her will.

Therefore we say that, even though Mary can no longer *command *her Son, since they are not on earth any more, still her prayers are always the prayers of a Mother and are therefore most powerful in obtaining whatever she asks.

At the command of Mary all obey, even God. 38

She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. 39
Therefore, to use the words of St. Antonine, God has put the whole Church not only under the patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary.

Since, then, the Mother must have the same power as the Son, Mary became omnipotent because Jesus is omnipotent. Of course, the Son is omnipotent by nature, where Mary is omnipotent only by grace. This is proved by the fact that the Son never refuses the Mother anything she seeks, as St. Bridget learned in a revelation.

One day this Saint heard Jesus saying to Mary: " Ask Me for anything; your request can never be in vain." And this is the beautiful reason He gave: “Because you never refused Me anything on earth, I will refuse you nothing in Heaven.”

From the time that Mary came into the world, her one thought, along with seeking the glory of God, was to help the helpless. And even then, while here on earth, she enjoyed the privilege of being heard in all her requests.

Consider what happened at Cana. When the wine failed, the Blessed Virgin was touched with pity for the trouble and embarrassment of the bridal couple, and she asked her Son to help them with a miracle. She simply said to her Son: “They have no wine.”

But Jesus answered: *“Woman, how does this concern of yours involve Me? *My *hour has not yet come. *” In other words, “It is not time yet for Me to work miracles; that will be when I begin to preach and will need miracles to confirm My doctrines.”

Yet, to content His Mother, He changed the water into the best of wines. How could it be that, against His own predetermined plans, He worked this miracle?

Actually, there was no violation of His own decrees; for although, generally speaking, the time for miracles had not yet come, still from all eternity He had established another decree to the effect that, when His Mother asked for anything, she was not to be refused.

St. Thomas comments on the expression, “My hour has not yet come.” He says: Here Christ wished to indicate that, if anyone else had asked for the miracle, He would not have granted it; but since it was His Mother who asked, He performed it.


#17

I strongly suggest that what we are looking at here is poetic language. How many times have we met a healthy, balanced family in which the father is clearly the ultimate head but in which people will make the comment that the wife really has the last say. What they mean is that the husband loves his wife and considers carefully her opinion. He will say “She’s the boss!” when in reality he may be the final authority.

I suspect that the quotes from the saints mentioned were talking about Mary’s loving intercessory role in Heaven and using the word “command” in the sense we might use the expression “Your wish is my command.” Of course God cannot be commanded by anybody and nor would the humble maid of the Magnificat ever consider trying to command God.


#18

[quote=asteroid] Mary, then, is called omnipotent in the sense in which such a term can be applied to a creature who is incapable of a divine attribute; that is, she is omnipotent because she obtains by her prayers whatever she wishes.
[/quote]

By this definition of ‘omnipotent’, all Christians are omnipotent; Jesus said:
24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. (Mark 11:24)

17Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 18Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. (Matthew 18:17-18)


#19

[quote=Todd Easton]By this definition of ‘omnipotent’, all Christians are omnipotent; Jesus said:

24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. (Mark 11:24)

17Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 18Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. (Matthew 18:17-18)

[/quote]

That 2nd verse you quoted has always :confused: me because I think it’s the same verse that the “name it & claim it” folks use and yet, as Catholics we don’t believe that they are applying it correctly, do we? For example - my huband and I could agree that we need a brand new car - both ask about it and yet we may not GET that brand new car (or a cure for cancer - or better job closer to family or whatever we might “agree on”)

I do appreciate the thought however that Mary is ALWAYS in agreement with God - as we will be as Saints in heaven… that makes sense to me… but I wouldn’t use the word “omnipotence” with my Protestant friends in regards to her as it wouldn’t win me any points.


#20

[quote=Eliza10][/font]http://www.ourladyweb.com/forum/index.php?topic=931.0

[font=Courier New]And here we say, that although Mary, now in heaven, can no longer command her Son, nevertheless her prayers are always the prayers of a Mother, and consequently most powerful to obtain whatever she asks. “Mary,” says Saint Bonaventure, “has this great privilege, that with her Son she above all the Saints is most powerful to obtain whatever she wills.”
[/quote]

First of all what is the divine source for this assertion? Second, for Mary to be considered the most powerful Saint and granted by God whatever she wills, she would have to be omniscient, knowing fully (infinitely) the situation and motives behind ALL prayers petitioned to her. Third, to be granted whatever “she wills” would mean her will is on the level of God’s. She would, in fact, be a Goddess.

All this is dangerously far from true, Apostolic Christiantity. They’re attempts to elevate Mary as close to Divinity as man can possibly do, without actually doing it. Mary was the mother of Jesus because the Son was to be *born * into this world that a Man might redeem humanity from the eternal consequences of sin. This He accomplished through the substitutionary sin-sacrifice of Himself. But Scripture gives absolutely no indication that He also came into this world to obtain “a mother” to exalt and bring back to Heaven to reign with Him and give dominion. True Christianity is not a Mother-Son religion. This is a pagan concept.

And why? Precisely for the reason on which we have already touched, and which we shall later on again examine at greater length, because they are the prayers of a mother. And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth.

What is “Saint Peter Damian’s” divine source for this revelation? According to this guy there two omnipotent and omnicient wills being exercised in Heaven: God’s and Mary’s.

She is able to raise even those who are in despair to
confidence; and he addresses her in these words: “All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee, who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.”"

This isn’t “poetic” language, it’s deifying language. What’s the divine source for this assertion?

And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us
from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy,
at which sinners obtain pardon), "her Son esteems her prayers so
greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it
seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid. Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “Thou art the Mother of God, and all powerful to save sinners, and with God thou needest no other recommendation; for thou art the Mother of true life.” —
From Glories of Mary, Chapter VI.

This is not “poetic” language but deifying language. None of it’s Biblical, so on what divine authority (revelation) does “Saint Germanus” make such bold assertions? This language, used to describe the alleged relationship between “Mother and Son,” is parallel to that which is found in Scripture between the Father and the Son. Where the Father gives all authority on earth and in Heaven to the Son, and all are to honor the Son as they honor the Father (Matt. 28:18; Jn. 5:23). A clear attempt by men to elevate Mary (a mere creature) to the position of deity, but always leaving a window open to escape. Like in saying she is omnioptent “not by nature but by grace.” There is no such thing as being omnipotent “by grace.” Omipotence is an attribute of an infinite God, not an external function assigned to a creature.

Blessings,
Bene


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