Apologetics to a Jehovah Witness


#1

Today at work I was talking to a coworker who’s a Jehovah Witness and got into a discussion about his religion. He spoke an awful LOT…I barely had time to get a word in and, besides, I’m not Catholic yet and am still familiarizing myself. So this was particularly interesting to me, and I guess it could be considered my first “apologetics” experience. He said a few things, particularly against the Catholic Church, but some just generally:

  1. “Jesus said call no other man Father, and priests and the Pope are called that.”

  2. “In the Bible it says we are ‘living souls’…when we die we are just dead, until Armageddon, when the faithful will be raised from the dead.” (He was saying there is no soul, the man IS the soul, and the only heaven is for the kingdom/government of God or something.)

  3. “Jesus said we are all brothers and we all must become children and that’s why we don’t have anything like the Pope or priests who try to be so holy and all these people making a big deal out of them.”

  4. “If Catholics really believed in heaven, why are they so sad the Pope is gone? If he went to heaven, he is in a better place.” (Argument against heaven/soul I guess)

This is all paraphrased but generally this is what he was trying to say. He quoted Revelation a LOT and quoted a LOT of scripture.

How would you defend the faith against these things? :whacky:

Also, any comments regarding the Jehovah Witness faith (its peculariarities, reasons why it is invalid, anything you know) would be appreciated.


#2
  1. catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

  2. this just sounds weird

  3. We should all “try to be so holy.” Jesus also chose 12 apostles even though he had many desciples. Why didn’t he treat them all the same?

  4. We’re sad for the pope because he was a beacon of light in the world and we will miss him, not because he is off to someplace bad. I bet he gets sad when someone he cares about dies.

catholic.com/library/noncatholic_groups.asp
There’s a bunch of articles on the JWs here.


#3

hola!

Dear megan, the Jehovah Witnesses always talk…BUT NEVER LISTEN (thats what teacher say to them when they prepare them)
besides…will you listen to a person that follows the antichrist (for them the pope is the antichrist) so in short answer:

Stop wasting your time in him. before he converts you.
so far none of them move an inch is like there program or something

here, hope this helps
geocities.com/jforjesus2002/page17.html
talkaboutreligion.com/group/aus.religion/messages/67283.html

PLEASE CHECK THEM OUT AND TELL US WHAT YOU THINK OF THE 2 PAGES


#4

Megan,
One of the very best investments that you could make is in the San Juan Catholic Seminars series of studies. They are very reasonably priced and I’ve found them invaluable. Get them here: catholicapologetics.com/

Since you are dealing with our friends the JWs I suggest that you get #'s 2 and 2.5 since they have to do with their beliefs.
The whole series is really great…I have 'em all.
Pax vobiscum,


#5
  1. Haha! OH! That’s rich! So, when Jesus wept for Lazarus, did he not believe in Heaven?

#6

Here’s my question you can ask of your co-worker:

When I was a JW from 1986 - 1992 we believed and preached that the generation that was born before 1914 would not pass away (die) before Armegeddon. They preached that up until 1914, Satan was allowed into heaven but in that year, he was cast out and thrown down to the earth where he’s been ever since. They say that having Satan on the earth was so terrible, it caused World War One. Anyhow, they said that the generation that witnessed Satan coming to the earth would be the same people who witnessed the End of the World - Armegeddon. So they said it was people born right around 1900 - give or take a few years who would live to see Armegeddon. I know it sounds wacky - are you with me still? So in 1986 it was talked about over & over again that the “generation” was now 86 years old so Armegeddon would HAVE TO HAPPEN ANY MINUTE. When l987 rolled around they said, “Wow… they are 87… IT WON’T BE LONG NOW!!!” So fast forward all these years and that generation born in 1900 is now 105 years old. They’re pretty much all gone. Where is Armegeddon? Didn’t happen. They spoke for God and they were WRONG. Now here’s where it gets interesting… read what God himeslf says about false prophets in Deut. 18:20 - 22.
“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say… MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord doesn NOT take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has NOT spoken”

Ask him about that…


#7

Really appreciate all your replies! And it’s good to hear from you, carol marie, since you were one before :slight_smile:


#8


[quote=Sorbetto]Today at work I was talking to a coworker who’s a Jehovah Witness and got into a discussion about his religion. He spoke an awful LOT…I barely had time to get a word in and, besides, I’m not Catholic yet and am still familiarizing myself. So this was particularly interesting to me, and I guess it could be considered my first “apologetics” experience. He said a few things, particularly against the Catholic Church, but some just generally:



  1. “Jesus said call no other man Father, and priests and the Pope are called that.”

Read the passage in context. Christ was telling the Pharisees that because of the way they used the word. They were being proud. In fact the apostles themselves called themselves the ‘fathers’ of their disciples. 1 Cor. 4:15, Paul refers to himself as ‘father’ of the Church in Corinth. Many people use the word ‘teacher’, or ‘bible teacher’ or ‘sunday school teacher’…and how many people do you know who call their biological father anything other than father, dad, daddy? This is a misunderstanding of the context of the scripture reading.


  1. “In the Bible it says we are ‘living souls’…when we die we are just dead, until Armageddon, when the faithful will be raised from the dead.” (He was saying there is no soul, the man IS the soul, and the only heaven is for the kingdom/government of God or something.)

A soul cannot die, because a soul has no physical parts. A soul is not limited by our human concept of space and time. Death of the body is esentially physical…it consists of the breakup of physical parts. A soul has no physical parts and therefore cannot die. In Genesis we are told God made man in his image. God is pure spirit. God cannot die, therefore, our spirit is not capable of dying. in 1 Samuel, Samuel appeared to Saul after his death, proving that his soul did not die. Mt. 10:28 tells us not to fear man, because a man cannot kill our soul, but only the body. Mt. 17:1-8 tells us that Moses appeared to Christ, and others saw him as well, so his soul wasn’t in some deep sleep as JW"s contend. Lk 16 tells us of Lazarus, who’s soul wasn’ t sleeping but was conscience in the next world. Rev. 6:9-10 shows us the vision of the souls who pray in heaven. They are not asleep.


  1. “Jesus said we are all brothers and we all must become children and that’s why we don’t have anything like the Pope or priests who try to be so holy and all these people making a big deal out of them.”

Christ said “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail.” Mt. 16:18. He also said to Peter “Peter, do you love me…feed my sheep…” (paraphrased). Christ clearly set up a priesthood, as we are told of Bishops and priests in the NT after the death of Christ. So their statement isn’t Biblical.


  1. “If Catholics really believed in heaven, why are they so sad the Pope is gone? If he went to heaven, he is in a better place.” (Argument against heaven/soul I guess)

We are sad because the world has lost a truly holy man. Not that he’s not going ot heaven…for all we know he may already be there. We are jubilant that he is now able to continue to pray for us here on earth, and to pray for the Church, as we know he will. All men are sad when a loved one dies…and this Pope was loved by the world (proven by the masses in Rome at his funeral and the many world leaders.).


This is all paraphrased but generally this is what he was trying to say. He quoted Revelation a LOT and quoted a LOT of scripture.

How would you defend the faith against these things? :whacky:

Also, any comments regarding the Jehovah Witness faith (its peculariarities, reasons why it is invalid, anything you know) would be appreciated.
[/quote]


The Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in the Divinity of Christ. They believe he was only a prophet. So they cannot hardly be called Christians.

Gracie


#9

Not a prophet - they believe he was Michael the Archangel.


#10

What I did is I got myself a book called “Index of watchtower errors” Its not Catholic there is nothing that contradicts the CC. What it does is break down many of the contradictions that the society has prophesized. It gives the date of the book and the page number. I just made myself a list of some of them where they have wavered back and forth. Where they said the world was going to end 1914, then 1925, then 1975, etc etc and how they kept insisting that those dates were not the organizations but God’s dates and were true. Then it sayd that in later publications (again with dates and page numbers) they claimed that they didn’t say for certain, but that many faithful took it to mean that those were the exact dates but to not give up and continue to work for Gods organization on earth, etc etc. I had a couple come by once and I confronted them with those but they didnt want to take them. I questioned them why. They said they were not supposed to read any other materials. I told them that they were exact sayings from the Watchtower so they should not be afraid. I actually had to chase after them out into the street. They were running away from me. One of them finally took it and I told her to go to her library and look them up if she didnt believe me.

Since then they rarely make a stop at my house. Several times I see then walk buy and stop in front of the house, check a book or something and walk away.:smiley: I find it so sad that people can be duped into this organization. They look for the uneducated and ignorant. They will shower them with gifts (as happened to an aunt of mine in Mexico) then they suggest to just read from the bible, any bible, but then they introduce their own warp translation. If they see a person deficient in scripture, they are a good catch.


#11

This is not an answer to the specific points you raise above, but may be helpfull:

The Apostle Thomas has some things to say which may be of interest to the Witnesses:

John 20:25 Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not beleive.
Note - the Witnesses teach that Jesus was put to death on an upright stake and that his hands were nailed together over his hand. Their illustrations show one nail being used. How is it, then, that Thomas used the plural “nails” above? Isn’t that more in line with two nails, as in hands outstretched on a cross?

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
**Note - **This is irrefutable, but be prepared to hear their theory on “little” gods in the Bible. This might help - If you look at the 21st chapter of John as kind on an epilog in which John, uses the incident at Galilee to show who would be the leader of the Church (that’s another discussion), then you have the incident in the Upper Room in ch. 20 as the climax of the book of John.
So… the Gospel of John starts off with John making a statement about Jesus (1:1 - the Word was God), and “ends” in the Upper Room with Thomas declaring “my Lord and my God!”. What more can John say, short of drawing you a picture?

Didn’t mean to get off track but the above might help you in your discussions.


#12

You may want to visit my website for help:

www.catholicxjw.com

Jeff S.

Fellowship of Catholic Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses


#13

Well Sorbetto, here’s more:

Your point #2 - The Bible uses the word “soul” much the same way as it is used today. Sometimes it just means " a person" and sometimes it refers to something else. Even today you have that - a person will say something like “Thousands of souls perished on 9-11” when maybe that same person beleives that their “souls” went somewhere after death. The Witnesses concentrate on the instances where “soul” is used in the Bible to mean “a person”, and try to use them to prove their idea.

You might draw attention to the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. The Witnesses will try to pick apart the details of that account, but still the question stands - Would Jesus have used an illustration that would have been so misleading, if the basic parts of it weren’t true?

Also, Peter said in 2 Peter 1:13 and 14 - "…as long as I am in this earthly dwelling to stir you up by way of reminder, knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent…"
Notic that Peter did not say “I am my earthly dwelling”; he said “I am *in *this earthly dwelling”. What part of Peter was in his earthly dwelling?

Hope some of this helps.


#14

OK Sorbetto, here’s more:

  1. “Jesus said we are all brothers and we all must become children and that’s why we don’t have anything like the Pope or priests who try to be so holy and all these people making a big deal out of them.”

The Bible does* not *depict the early Christian congregation as a position-less group of people. Ephesians 4:10-12 shows some of the different offices in the early congregation; 1 Corinthians 12:18 says that it is God himself who has “…placed the members, each one of them in the body, just as He has desired.”; Romans 13:7 says to give “honor” to those to whom honor is due; and 1 Timothy 5:17 says “The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at teaching”. And if a local elder is to be “considered worthy of double honor”, what then of the leader of the whole Church; especially one who “worked hard at teaching” (an undersatement re. John Paul II).

That Jesus appointed one leader to shepherd the whole Church is shown in John 21:15-17 - it was Peter; after his conversion Paul travelled to Jerusalem just to meet Peter (Galatians 1:18), Peter’s name appears first in every listing of the Apostles;
the unanimous agreement of the early Church writings is that Peter was the first Bishop (“overseer” - New World Translation,
episkopos - Greek, “bishop” - KJV and others) of Rome (one theory about the reason the book of Acts does not report Peter as going to Rome is that by that time he was a “wanted man” and that naming him as going to Rome would have tipped off the Roman authorities).

Hope some of this helps.


#15

I work with a couple JW’S. We used to argue so much at work that we are banned from discussing religion at all!!! :tsktsk: Neither of us moved. :banghead: :whistle: Anyhow, we’re friends now. http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


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