Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass


#1

I often hear Archbishop Annibale Bugnini brought up regarding the alleged “evil” of the Novus Ordo Mass. It’s rumored that he was a Freemason, and there are those who claim that because of that he served as the principal “architect” of the Novus Ordo Mass just so he could make the Mass into something less than Catholic. But even if the Freemason rumors are true, how can I explain to someone why that doesn’t make the Novus Ordo intrinsically bad?


#2

[quote=DavidJoseph]… regarding the alleged “evil” of the Novus Ordo Mass… how can I explain to someone why that doesn’t make the Novus Ordo intrinsically bad?
[/quote]

Forget Bugnini. Maybe the guy was a nut or a sinner, and maybe he wasn’t - so what?

If this person thinks Novus Ordo is “evil,” ask him to point out the MOST evil portion of it. Where does it really go over-the-top? Ask him to identify the *specific *portion of the Mass, and explain WHY this is part is “evil.”

For the record, I think Novus Ordo is a *dreadful *form (having come from a high-church Anglican background, where they know how to do an English-language “mass” right!). But it can be aesthetically bad and still be perfectly good and valid.


#3

[quote=DavidJoseph]I often hear Archbishop Annibale Bugnini brought up regarding the alleged “evil” of the Novus Ordo Mass. It’s rumored that he was a Freemason, and there are those who claim that because of that he served as the principal “architect” of the Novus Ordo Mass just so he could make the Mass into something less than Catholic. But even if the Freemason rumors are true, how can I explain to someone why that doesn’t make the Novus Ordo intrinsically bad?
[/quote]

And somehow, Bugnini pulled the whole idea off with all the later Popes affirming the Novus Ordo Mass as a valid Mass…:hmmm: Thanks and God Bless.


#4

[quote=slinky1882]And somehow, Bugnini pulled the whole idea off with all the later Popes affirming the Novus Ordo Mass as a valid Mass…
[/quote]

Maybe that’s because it IS a valid Mass. Maybe Bugnini didn’t “pull off” anything.

If Novus Ordo is invalid, what SPECIFIC part of it is invalid, and WHY?

(and I realize that Slinky’s post (to which I am responding) is not questioning the validity of the Mass - quite the contrary. I am adding to these comments with further questions which show the absurdity of the whole topic).


#5

[quote=DavidFilmer]Maybe that’s because it IS a valid Mass. Maybe Bugnini didn’t “pull off” anything.

If Novus Ordo is invalid, what SPECIFIC part of it is invalid, and WHY?
[/quote]

LOL, exactly, I was being sarcastic. The idea that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid and pulled off by one man against the Divinely protected Church during the tenures of several different Popes is preposterous. David Filmer’s question are excellent as a reponse. :clapping: Thanks and God Bless.


#6

I often hear Archbishop Annibale Bugnini brought up regarding the alleged “evil” of the Novus Ordo Mass. It’s rumored that he was a Freemason, and there are those who claim that because of that he served as the principal “architect” of the Novus Ordo Mass just so he could make the Mass into something less than Catholic. But even if the Freemason rumors are true, how can I explain to someone why that doesn’t make the Novus Ordo intrinsically bad?

I do believe that he was indeed found to be a Freemason, an was excommunicated for this. ( I’ll look for refernces)

He himself admited to removing all Catholic Dogma offensive to Protestants from the prayers in the Mass. And I’m not quite sure that based on the validity of this statement and the ties to Freemasonry you can explain that the NOM is not bad. Valid, Yes. Bad, ?


#7

[quote=DavidFilmer]Forget Bugnini. Maybe the guy was a nut or a sinner, and maybe he wasn’t - so what?

If this person thinks Novus Ordo is “evil,” ask him to point out the MOST evil portion of it. Where does it really go over-the-top? Ask him to identify the *specific *portion of the Mass, and explain WHY this is part is “evil.”

For the record, I think Novus Ordo is a *dreadful *form (having come from a high-church Anglican background, where they know how to do an English-language “mass” right!). But it can be aesthetically bad and still be perfectly good and valid.
[/quote]

All thouse Protestants know how to do is to put on a complicated prayer meeting – complete with a verger.


#8

All the stuff about Bugnini is basically paranoid rad trad conspiracy theory. I’ve said it before, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that they also accused him of being the lone gunman on the grassy knoll in Dealy Plaza in Dallas in 1963. No, wait, that couldn’t have been him, he was busy in Rome, dancing naked on the steps of Saint Peter as he let the smoke of Satan into Holy Mother Church. Or was that Elvis?:rolleyes:

The Vicars of Christ, the Successors to Saint Peter, promulgated the NO Mass and offered it themselves, four of them now (Paul VI, JPI, JPII, and Benedict XVI). The Church cannot be lead into error by the head shepherds.


#9

[quote=JKirkLVNV]All the stuff about Bugnini is basically paranoid rad trad conspiracy theory. I’ve said it before, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that they also accused him of being the lone gunman on the grassy knoll in Dealy Plaza in Dallas in 1963. No, wait, that couldn’t have been him, he was busy in Rome, dancing naked on the steps of Saint Peter as he let the smoke of Satan into Holy Mother Church. Or was that Elvis?:rolleyes:

The Vicars of Christ, the Successors to Saint Peter, promulgated the NO Mass and offered it themselves, four of them now (Paul VI, JPI, JPII, and Benedict XVI). The Church cannot be lead into error by the head shepherds.
[/quote]

I am no conspiracy nut, but one man can do much damage. Look at Judas.


#10

[quote=fix]I am no conspiracy nut, but one man can do much damage. Look at Judas.
[/quote]

Hmmm, damage? or redemption? With out Judas there would have been no resurrection.

So even if you find something bad with Archbishop Bugnini, God can use his work for Good.

Anyways, the Mass was promulgated by the Pope and the Magisterium, not one individual.

It is Valid and efficacious.


#11

[quote=fix]I am no conspiracy nut, but one man can do much damage. Look at Judas.
[/quote]

Point taken, but was Judas not predestined to do as he did? Obviously, he had a choice, but do we not believe, as Catholic Christians, that Christ had to die, chose to die for our redemption?


#12

The Holy Mass is full of physical actualities and invisible realities. Just have a read of this little pamphlet which has an imprimatur.

greatcrusade.org/greatcrusade/Mass/Holy_Mass-8x11-manuscript.pdf


#13

Of coarse Archbishop Bugnini was just the greatest ever. C’mon being sent over to Iran after all his “good work”? That’s a place where he ministered to millions of Catholics!


#14

Excellent point Eddie !!!


#15

[quote=ByzCath]Hmmm, damage? or redemption? With out Judas there would have been no resurrection.

So even if you find something bad with Archbishop Bugnini, God can use his work for Good.

Anyways, the Mass was promulgated by the Pope and the Magisterium, not one individual.

It is Valid and efficacious.
[/quote]

None of that refutes the argument that Bugnini may have been the etiology of much confusion and turmoil.


#16

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Point taken, but was Judas not predestined to do as he did? Obviously, he had a choice, but do we not believe, as Catholic Christians, that Christ had to die, chose to die for our redemption?
[/quote]

What does that have to do with my point that one man can cause many problems in the Church?


#17

[quote=EddieArent]Of coarse Archbishop Bugnini was just the greatest ever. C’mon being sent over to Iran after all his “good work”? That’s a place where he ministered to millions of Catholics!
[/quote]

Excellent point Eddie !!!

Millions of Catholics in Iran, which is less than 1 percent Christian?:confused:


#18

There is no mainstream proof that Archbishop Bugnini was a Freemason. The ONLY place I’ve seen that is on Sedevacantist websites (maybe SSPX says the same thing- I’m not for sure on that).

Like it or not, the pope does have the authority to revise the liturgy- or even totally redo it. The new liturgy may not be a very good one, and I think it was horrible judgement on his part to almost totally change the liturgy during one of the most unstable decades in modern world history- and right in the worst part of it change the liturgy the most. Maybe the Church needed some sort of renewal- they should have tried to refresh things without redoing them- or at least redone them MUCH slower, and with a lot of consideration as to what message it would send, and how it would affect those affected by the changes. It sent the message to the world that even the Catholic Church, which for much of it’s existance was seen as one thing that was a stable, steady part of the world, can “get with the times”- as many people in the 70’s thought it was doing- until Humanae Vitae- which in my opinion was a bit too late. Nevertheless, the pope can change the liturgy if he wants. He can also change it again- to what it used to be- or a new Missal using a much more similar form as to what it used to be. I’d welcome such a change.


#19

[quote=EddieArent]Of coarse Archbishop Bugnini was just the greatest ever. C’mon being sent over to Iran after all his “good work”? That’s a place where he ministered to millions of Catholics!
[/quote]

[quote=Steve Green]Excellent point Eddie !!!
[/quote]

[quote=Catholic29]Millions of Catholics in Iran, which is less than 1 percent Christian?:confused:
[/quote]

So let me get this straight.

Archbishop Bugnini was so bad that he was sent away to head a Diocese in Iran.

So the Holy Father thought so much of the poor Catholics in Iran as to place someone he was trying to get rid of as their shepard?

Much nonsense, or are you saying that the Church hates the Catholics in areas where they are not the majority? I would think that these Catholics would need an even more capable shepard than those who live in predominately Christian nations.

What you must think of the Church and of your fellow Catholics in nations where they are the minority. So sad.


#20

[quote=fix]What does that have to do with my point that one man can cause many problems in the Church?
[/quote]

Yes, you’re right, nothing. But there is no accepted scholarly work suggesting that Bugnini did what he’s accused of doing. There is only rad trad info. off rad trad sites. Highly suspect.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.