Archbishop Justin Welby: no-deal Brexit would harm poorest people in UK


The archbishop of Canterbury has said a no-deal Brexit would hit the poorest and most vulnerable people in the UK.

Justin Welby also said he was praying for Theresa May and other politicians at the start of what is expected to be one of the most tumultuous weeks in recent parliamentary history.

Last week, Welby said in the House of Lords that a no-deal Brexit would be “not only a political and practical failure, but a moral one,” and a second referendum may be needed to avoid it.

Welby is known to have voted remain in the 2016 referendum, and has described the EU as “the greatest dream realised for human beings since the fall of the western Roman empire”.


He’s right. There’s no two ways around that. The poor are being sold out by the mega-rich, and it’s the poor who voted for Brexit that will suffer the most.


It’s particularly crazy when people on various welfare payments say that they voted for Brexit because they had nothing to lose.


Can anyone refer me to whatever economics books Bp Welby has written? Possibly some journal articles? Undoubtedly, he has proved to a reasonable economic certainty (with all the graphs and complex algebraic expressions economists are given to using) that the poor, not the globalist elites, benefit most from membership in the EU.


Yes, I have great admiration and respect for His Grace Reverend Welby, who exhibits the same social conscience and evangelical virtues as His Holiness Pope Francis.

It is a blessing that the Catholic and Anglican Churches have pastors willing to speak truth to power boldly and with sincerity, mindful of the preferential option for the poor and disadvantaged above all.

The ecclesiastical leaders are vastly outstripping the political hacks disgracing our government at the moment. Not even a patch on the former.

From Archbishop Welby’s speech mentioned in the OP:

In AD 410 the City of Rome was invaded and sacked by Goths. In the years that followed, and in reaction to this moment, St Augustine of Hippo started to write the book that was to dominate his literary output for the remainder of his life. City of God or, in Latin, De Civitate Dei contra paganos, is set against the background of pagan despair at the fall of Rome – the gods of that age in whom the people trusted proved not to be able to protect the city from its overthrow.

Europe is not in danger of falling. And there is no sense in which I suggest that Brexit or other crises currently around will derail the European Union or bring about the downfall of Europe…In my part of the continent there is a nation attempting to leave the EU, on the other edges of the EU such as here there are countries and peoples keen to get in…

In the early 6th Century, following the fall of the Western Empire, Saint Benedict, one of the patron saints of Europe, founded the first of his monasteries at Monte Cassino. The Rule of Saint Benedict, one of the most inspired and brilliant codes of conduct for any religious community, indeed any community, provided a flexible and imaginative way of life that attracted tens of thousands of people into its obedience over the next centuries.

The more that people are gripped by fear of the Other, and the more that those fears are played on and manipulated by political leaders, the more the Church is to exist in witness and presence demonstrating the hospitality, the humility, the service and the love in a disciplined and virtuous life which was so clearly demonstrated in the Benedictine monasteries, and which after a thousand years brought back to life the hope of a flourishing humanity.

The EU has been the greatest dream realised for human beings since the fall of the Western Roman Empire. It has brought peace, prosperity, compassion for the poor and weak, purpose for the aspirational and hope for all its people.

It has always been challenged and always will.


Amazing! He compares Benedictine communities founded on faith to the secular EU that refused Pope JPII’s request for at least some kind of recognition of Europe’s Christian roots. Maybe comparison to the Hanseatic League would be closer to reality.

And probably the greatest single cause of the fall of the Roman Empire he so admires was childlessness, to which Europe is busily succumbing right now; a childlessness that, in Rome’s case, invited immigration by alien peoples.


I’m quaking in my boots!


His comparison, I think, was between the Pax Romana and postwar European integration. Those are, really, the only sustained periods of peace throughout much of Europen history (save for the constant wars of expansion on the Empire’s frontiers).

And in both cases, a supranational order held sway over much of the continent, from Hadrian’s Wall in Britannia to Gaul, Iberia and Greece.

Secondly, he did seem to be comparing the openness, hospitality, charity and intellectual flourishing of the pacific Benedictines to the values that underpinned the great hopeful movement of European peace and unity after the Second World War, which was spearheaded by Catholic statesmen like De Gaspari in Italy, Schuman in France and Adenaeur in West Germany. Don’t forget that the US was concerned in the 1950s that “Little Europe” - the original inner six nations who signed the Treaty of Rome in 1957 - were a Catholic club that would alienate Protestant countries from joining.

That is how the EU got started. Its roots, so to speak. It’s founding fathers are it’s founding fathers and Europe Day on May 9th, the official flag day of the EU, commemorates the 1950 Schuman Declaration which kick-started the integration process.

You can’t remove that heritage anymore than the US can Washington or Jefferson.

Even Jacob Rees Mogg, the Hard Brexiteeter Tory backbencher who is the most outspoken British critic of the EU, admits this:

Jacob Rees-Mogg, Member of Parliament for North East Somerset…is one of the leading voices in favor of Brexit. He spoke to CNA about his views…, and why he finds it unsurprising that many in the Church appear to have a preference for the union.

“I think there is a great deal of residual affection for the EU because of its origins,” he told CNA. “As a project, it was first put forward by Christian Democrats from the founding member states, and it was intended to have a Christian and democratic ethos.”


I highly doubt a no-deal Brexit would occur. The majority of MPs reject that and the polls on public opinion show the same. The no-deal Brexiteers are out of their minds for even thinking they represent all Leave voters. Seriously, look at the data.
I expect either another referendum or Norway + after tomorrow.


One needs to recall that the Pax Romana broke down because it became oppressive and lost the allegiance of its citizens, particularly the “non-Roman Romans”. Remember Alaric?

The Rees-Mogg quote isn’t too surprising. As the Russians say, the cow that died is always the one that gave the most milk.


The people that want a hard Brexit the most are the well off that won’t really be affected by it.

By the way, it’s been TOTALLY FUN asking my GP about what’s being done about stockpiling prescriptions in case mine don’t arrive soon enough in the event that customs becomes a parking lot!!! :rage:


In the end, Rome fell because of taxation that was so oppressive that landowners walked away from the land in lieu of paying said taxes. Hence the tax base imploded, the army stopped getting paid and the Goths who had made loans to Rome also stopped getting paid. When that happened, the army sacked the cities they were supposed to protect and the Goths marched on to Rome virtually untouched.

The EU is becoming oppressive and its problems have not resolved themselves nor are they going to anytime soon. The French are the most heavily taxed citizenry in the world today and to judge from the sticking power of the gilets jaunes, that has become an extremely sore topic. I have asked before, with what is the EU prepared to enforce its dictates? This is becoming a more relevant question that refuses to go away.

The current Brexit deal was consistently voted against because it was seen as a near complete sellout on May’s part combined with the EU’s desire to punish the UK for even thinking of leaving; they want to set the UK as the leading example for any other country that would dare to think about leaving too. Why would the EU ever want to change May’s deal as is? They got what they wanted, which was for May to sell out her own people. May has threatened a “No Deal” Brexit in order to force through the approval of her unpalatable deal that most of the MPs do not want. But that is not working so now the “No Deal” Brexit is practically on the horizon. Here we see a second separate rebellion on the part of the ardent Remainers who have threatened to seize the reigns of the government from May in order to enforce the establishment’s will on the country. And again the EU sees no need to negotiate; they think they’re going to win out at this point. To which I’m just grabbing another box of popcorn.

I don’t think “no deal” is going to be the disaster the establishment thinks it will be. Have to remember what the establishment stands to gain or lose and follow their allegiances accordingly. When the people voted Leave in the first place, the establishment thought that it was going to be a disaster right there, well so much for Chicken Little. Will things get rocky under the “No Deal” scenario, yes I think so. But as opposed to many, I think there is the possibility of a positive outcome for the UK when all is said and done.


Depends on whether one considers the establishment’s (right-wing, plutocratic version) aim of a period of disaster capitalism and an ‘Asian’-style economy a disaster or not, I expect.


A defeat by 230 of May’s ‘Deal’ is pretty resounding! :grin:


Worst government defeat ever. Wow - I wasn’t expecting it to pass, but I didn’t expect it to be quite so heavy.


That vote should not have surprised anyone. It was after all a terrible deal, witness the EU’s refusal to renegotiate any part of it when the MP’s found out just how bad it was. When May attempted to get more concessions, the EU essentially told her to pound sand. Well the MP’s finally had the opportunity to kill the deal for May and it’s not surprising that they did. So now we finally get the slightest hint from Germany that the EU might be willing to renegotiate after all. Which is really what most MPs want to begin with: to get a better deal they could approve in lieu of No Deal. The message has been sent to the EU. Let’s see how they receive it.


Surely May and her government can’t outlive this?


In normal circumstances, no. But this isn’t normal.

She’s facing a vote of no confidence in her government, tabled by Jeremy Corbyn. But she’s not expected to lose that - the DUP will support her, and so will the hard Brexiteers in the Conservative party. So the real question is what then - because it won’t have changed anything.


She could, indeed, resign as PM and another Tory could attempt to form a new administration, if they could persuade (bribe) the DUP to support them and if the Party membership went along with it.

We’d still be in the world of alternative magical solutions, though.


I don’t see how that would work since Jean-Claude Juncker and others have said that the May Brexit deal is "the best possible deal” and “the only way to ensure an orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union.”

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