MarcoPolo: I don’t know that they can be classified as immutable dogma, but they have certainly been held for a long time. One might be able to argue that these are defined by way of the Ordinary Magisterium.
CCC#1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
The catechism isn’t a good source in this problem because it contradicts itself on this issue plus Catechism are not infallible.
Most Catholics won’t agree to that because they think they are being unfaithful
The new (CCC) Catechism, &Catechisms in general, are not infallible documents and neither was The catechism of Trent:
Catechism of the Council of Trent- Fifteenth printing, TAN Books, Introduction XXXVI: “Official documents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church. Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a place between approved catechisms and what is de fide.”
One error in the Catechism of the Council of Trent, Tan Books, p. 243: “For the Eucharist is the end of all the Sacraments, and the symbol of unity and brotherhood in the Church, outside of which none can attain[size=] grace.[/size]”
This isn’t true Actual grace can be obtained outside the Church.
The new Catechism also casts a shadow on itself with contradicting"teaching" by saying:
1257 **The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.The Church does [size=]not know of any means[/size] other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
then this line: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”( No footnote? Which Pope or Council defined this?)
So is God deceiving us by giving us the sacrament(s)? Was it His idea to say baptism is necessary for salvation or ours?( I personally would love everyone to go to heaven but I don’t make the rules ) Was it our idea and he is just humoring us? No, Jesus himself established the sacraments and made no room for exceptions for baptism
Fr. William Jurgens," The Faith of the Early Fathers", Vol. 3, pp. 14-15 footnote 31. : “If there were not a constant tradition in the Fathers that the Gospel message of ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ is to be taken absolutely, it would be easy to say that Our Savior simply did not see fit to mention the obvious exceptions of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility. But the tradition in fact is there; and it is likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation.”
The Catechism contradicts itself here & I hope it will be clarified soon. Thats all I can make of it :imsorry: :bighanky: