Are Catholic Charismatics different than Protestant?


#1

I became a Charismatic while on the Protestant side, and then came back home to the Catholic faith. A couple of nights ago while at a Catholic Charismatic Prayer Meeting I made a remark that Charismatic is Charismatic whether Catholic or Protestant. Well, I was quickly corrected, plus the leader wouldn’t even agree that they overlap.

Truthfully, I would rather pray the Rosary than pray in tongues, and I thought that I was helping them by praying with them.


#2

Charisms are gifts of the Holy Spirit. The biggest difference between Catholic Charismatics and our separated brothers and sisters is the acceptance of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. We choose to remain under the “umbrella of Catholicism.” Often Charismatics are characterized by outward appearance, by our praise and worship services. More important than the outward expression of personal faith is the interior change that is happening within each person. The Sacraments become more alive. If you get a chance to attend a Charismatic Mass, you will experience a depth of worship beyond what you experienced outside the Catholic Church. I have no doubt you are already experiencing this during “regular” daily and Sunday Mass. Charismatics do pray the “traditional” prayers of the Church including the rosary. I have been to meetings that did not begin until after the rosary had been prayed. Please do not downplay any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit you may have received, including the gift of tongues. Use it for discernment. Maybe instead of looking at attending the prayer meeting as “helping them,” you might just accept it as an opportunity to praise God in communion with other members of the Catholic Church who share the grace of God and the charisms available to each of us.
The theology behind the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, for Catholics, is a “release” of the gifts that we have already received as result of our Baptism and Confirmation. I love the zeal of Charismatic priests.


#3

I’ve been to charismatic protestant services and I’m quite invovled in Catholic charismatic movements. There are significant differences. Granted, I’m talking from New Zealand examples.

The protestant ones had no purpose, they had no goal and they didn’t seem to have anything in mind other then their own personal experience with God. It was very much a bunch of individuals seekign the gifts for their own individual delight, and some were very obviously “showing off” how blessed they were to be able to speak in tongues. There was no guidance, no direction. For example, the tongues - no one but the “speaker” could translate, that I was told is most dangerous. There needs to be an indepedant person who can translate.

The Catholic services were about using the gifts to build uplift the Church Body, to help everyone. They were guided, and people who spoke in tongues would have someone else translate or re-iterate the message. The groups I attended always had a priest present, oftentimes some nuns, yet were lead by a lay person. Prayers like the rosary were used, but it was a fuller, more intense Christian experience, as God intended it to be, not some selfish attempt to make yourself look holy in front of others.


#4

The specific purpose of one of the groups to which I belonged is intercessory prayer. There is a set order. We begin with praise and thanksgiving. After more songs and some sharing, we begin to pray for the intentions of the groups as well as the intentions of the parish and community at large. With my overseas parish, there are smaller groups that meet outside the regular weekly meeting for intercessory prayer. It is not unusual for prayer groups to have a prayer chain. If there is an emergency, one member calls the next person on the chain so that all join in prayer for the set purpose.
My overseas (Middle East) group does have a Charismatic Mass scheduled once a month. Another group to which I belonged stateside took the lead in arranging for annual parish healing Masses. With the healing Mass, we celebrate Mass as normal. After, there will be small groups of 2 or 3 to pray over those who come up for special prayer. It is understood that only the priest can administer the Sacrament of Annointing of the Sick.
There has not always been a priest present at the meetings I attended. However, every prayer group does have a spiritual director. An announcement was actually made one weekend about an individual who was holding unauthorized prayer meetings and how parishioners were not to attend those meetings. We are called to obedience.


#5

“The theology behind the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, for Catholics, is a “release” of the gifts that we have already received as result of our Baptism and Confirmation. I love the zeal of Charismatic priests.”

DebChrist,

Thanks for your help. According to what you just said, maybe I am half and half? I received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit about 2 years after I received the Sacrament of Comfirmation. However, it took a Protestant Preacher to lay hands on me to start me Speaking in Tongues. That was sometime back around 1976?

I have been around the block quite a few times with this stuff, but no one has explained the Catholic point of view. The Catholic group prays in the Spirit on command, all of them the same time. I was planning in teaching them to wait until the anointing fell on them, but I have completely given up on that group. I doubt if I will ever return. If my anointing clashes with their anointing I think it’s best to avoid them. What do you think?


#6

My experience of praying in tongues:
Song leads to praying in tongues. Sometimes it begins as a worship song comes to an end; or it may begin during a quiet period following the song. As the Spirit moves through the group, individuals begin to pray in tongues until all join. It could be described as a crescendo and then a fading as all come to an end. I don’t know if this is what you mean by praying on command. There will generally be a silent period that follows. The presence of the Holy Spirit is palpable. During this period of silence, there may be prophecy either in English or in tongues. If in tongues, it will be followed by an interpretation. When prophecy is given, another person will generally confirm what has been said. Discernment has always been an integral part of every group to which I have belonged. If more than one prophecy is given, it will generally complement what had already been said. Or a person from the group will share a selection from scripture. There is a sense of order. Of course, I have been in groups where it seems at times that the music ministry has announced the next song prematurely and not allowed the silence that would lead to prophecy. Since I am not one of the leaders, I relax and don’t worry about it. If God wants me to speak He will give me the words I need to speak in His own time.

Are there other groups close by? When I first become part of the Renewal, I drove 50 miles one direction to the retreat center where I received my Baptism in the Spirit. It was the closest group. After a car accident, I was unable to attend meetings for several years. In time I moved to a city with different parishes and I had the option of attending 2 different groups. I cannot say whether or not you need to find a different group, or just give yourself time to see how the Holy Spirit moves within the group to which you currently belong. Do keep your eyes open for announcements regarding Catholic Charismatic Conferences. With more people, struture becomes more formalized. Generally, individuals who wish to share a scripture passage or prophecy submit that prophecy or scripture passage to the Discernment team. Members of the discernment team will have been members of the Charismatic Renewal for a minimum of 10 years to ensure maturity in using the gift of discernment.


#7

I think that the history of the modern charismastic movement should be taken in the context here.I know that it is not unknown to you ,but others reading this thread may not know the facts.

(1) There has always been protestant charismatic churches & groups,The Baptist Church & Assemblies Of God are two American groups that come to mind.They are noted for the use of charismatic worship and praise.They pray in “Tongues”, have deliverance of evil spirits,songs of praise and spontaneous prayer.healing & testimony.

(2) In the early sixties some of Anglican (Episcopalians)community asked the question “why cannot our communities do all this and too experience this type of spirituality”? Some did indeed do this and this type of worship grew within this community,especially by the “low church” believers.

(3) Not much later there were catholics who asked this question as well.They formed “catholic” charismatic movements.Now this became a problem with some of these zealeous new charismatics.There was a significant number who left the catholic church and joined protestant charismatic churches and enjoyed the fellowship there.In the earlier eighties this pasteral problem came to the attention of Blessed Pope John Paul 11.He asked the bishops around the world to appoint pastors to act as chaplains to these groups.This helped to put the charismatic minded people within the catholic community on a sure foundation.This action also helped to educate these same charismatic catholics on the theology of The Holy Spirit within a sacramental catholic framework.

(4)Since this time there have emerged wonderful ,vibrant and faithfilled groups,religious communities that are Spirit filled and are very active within our churches.I have witnessed wonderful prayer filled retreat days ;where there is Adoration Of The Blessed Eucharist,Holy Mass,times for Confession,reciting The Rosary,Chaplet of Divine Mercy–and yes, plenty of vibrant songs of worship,praying in tongues etc.etc…

If you are wondering,no I am not a charismatic and I prefer a medative silence and prayer;but I respect that we are all different.I remember attending a talk at one “prayer meeting” and this layperson was speaking about St.John Mary Vianney and he concluded that he thought that this priest was a charismatic, but did not know it.!! This is what I would like to be thought of----full of the gifts of The Holy Spirit but not revealed in an outward show—maybe one day this might become a reality!!:smiley:


#8

The typical association of charismatic theology and the protestant church is an embarrassment. Not all protestants believe in this. Charismatic spiritual gifts such as healing and speaking in tongues do not exist in the modern world.


#9

I apologize! I shouldn’t have grouped all Protestants, because the pure Charismatics are non-denominational.


#10

I have not read through this thread… Thus, I am not sure how to phrase my answer to your question (What do you think?) or if it has already been answered. My apology.

This is the first time I have read a reference to “a personal anointing” which makes me wonder if there are the two different gifts of “tongues” in your post.


#11

I put in bold what could not escape the steel eyes of a granny mum.

The Holy Spirit’s gift of praying in tongues is not necessarily shown in an outward manner. Sometimes, in a quiet mode, only a slight movement of the tongue can be felt. Or maybe the tongue rests on the inside of the teeth as no sound is being made.

The key is that the person is yielding to the Holy Spirit. A very short period of this special gift can be used to place one humbly in the presence of God as a way of preparation for meditative silence and prayer. In this instance, what is known as prayer sounds or language, is in one’s mind and deeper in one’s soul.


#12

Yes, that is my question: Are we Catholics really different?

1 Corinthians 12:4 * There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:5 there are different forms of service but the same Lord;

1 Corinthians 12:6 there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.

1 Corinthians 12:7 To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.

1 Corinthians 12:8 To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.

These verses are from the Catholic NAB


#13

I was not offended, but I do feel making distinctions between some groups of Protestants is essential in understanding Protestant theology. There are Protestant groups that I am much farther from, theologically, than the Roman Catholic church.


#14

I am Protestant friendly, in fact my wife has been employed at an AG school for the past 17 years. However, that denomination is my least favorite. :slight_smile:


#15

Hello vera dicere,

I always like to hear from New Zealand. The Protestant Chsrismatic Church you described was probably Vineyard Christian Fellowship?

That happens to be my favorite Protestant Fellowship. What they are probably doing that you don’t understand is, they experience the Presence of God the Father. It’s awesome, to say the least. Also, they experience Signs & Wonders during church growth and church planting.

Vineyard music is very popular and of course extremely contemporary. I don’t know if I have been here long enough to post a YouTube, but here is an example of their Presence Music:
youtube.com/watch?v=iFA7XKD-vBM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


#16

[quote="johndoe100, post:12, topic:290177"]
Yes, that is my question: Are we Catholics really different?

1 Corinthians 12:4 * There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:5 there are different forms of service but the same Lord;

1 Corinthians 12:6 there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.

1 Corinthians 12:7 To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.

[/quote]

This describes the Catholic Church as the Mystical Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:8 To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.

These verses are from the Catholic NAB

This list of the nine Gifts of the Holy Spirit is known as the "classical" gifts or the Pauline Gifts. They are meant to build up the "Body of Christ" i.e. the Catholic Church. These gifts are directed outward to the community and to all people. These gifts are considered a ministry.

Usually, these gifts involve serious preparation and discernment before one seeks them. They are considered temporary in the sense that each use of them depends on the gifting of the Holy Spirit. This is why when you commented in post 5 -- "I was planning in teaching them to wait until the anointing fell on them" -- I wondered if you were referring to St. Paul's list.

1 Corinthians 12: 12-13

St. Paul returns to his theme of the Mystical Body of Christ. It is not unusual for St.Paul to go back and forth between two or more teachings. This is a major reason why most people do not grasp the fact that there are two separate gifts which use tongues. Also, the English translation uses "speaking" to mean two different gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In addition, 'speaking" is used in Chapter two of Acts. Here this is considered more of a miracle of hearing. It is my understanding that this particular gift of the Holy Spirit is not mentioned further. However, this does not necessarily mean that it was not evinced in later times.

Going back to post 5, there is this comment -- "The Catholic group prays in the Spirit on command, all of them the same time." This sounds like the common gift of praying in tongues. DebChris, post 6, did an excellent reply.

There are two major differences between the Common gift of [prayer] tongues and the Classical or Pauline Gift of tongues. 1. The common gift of prayer tongues is a permanent gift. It can be used at any time. 2. The common gift is basically the person's individual prayer (for any reason) directed to God. Thus, there is no need for interpretation of this gift.

Regarding the words "on command". This could have a couple of meanings in reference to the common gift of prayer tongues. The common gift is always under the control of the individual. In a sense, the person has command of this gift. "on command" can also mean that the common gift has a specific place in the agenda for a group meeting.

While the Pauline Gift of speaking in tongues is under the control of the individual, the individual not only has to yield to the Holy Spirit, she or he has to wait for the Holy Spirit to act. This is why there is usually a period of silence during a group meeting. It is respectful waiting for the Holy Spirit to give His gifts. Often during this silence, people will quietly use their own gift of praying in tongues to petition the Holy Spirit for His gifts.

One last comment about "on command". While there was time set aside for praying in tongues, there is no "command" to do so. One of our members only prayed in English and not in prayer tongues. In union with her, some of us would pray in both tongues and in English. Praying in tongues at any time is voluntary.

As to the question, are Catholic charismatics really different from other Christian groups?
The answer is yes because Catholic charismatics place the Catholic religion as the priority. One example, is that Catholic charismatics become lectors or extraordinary ministers of Communion. The common gift of prayer tongues can be seen as a personal tool to accomplish the mission of the Catholic Church. The nine gifts listed by St. Paul are community "tools" to accomplish the mission of the Catholic Church.

Important note:
While I have written about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in regard to the Catholic Church -- by no means is the Holy Spirit limited to the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit is in control of His gifts and He distributes them according to His, not ours, wisdom.


#17

:smiley:

Thank you,great lady of the spiritual world!:thumbsup: I read also your good summary of the charismatic gifts and to where they fit in.I agree with you that a Catholic Charismatic Worship is or should be manifested differently; as against that of our separated christian bretheren.

I have mixed experiences with the catholic charismatic groups here in aussie land.Some just talk their heads off(using the tongue!!):stuck_out_tongue: in the church before and after a “healing Mass” as they call it here.I always think that if they were full of the Holy Spirit,they would not ignore the real presence of Jesus in the Tabernacle.!! It is like a person who is in front of the President of The United States or The Holy Father and then ignore him, as if they did not exist or did not matter.The evangelical traditions do not believe in The Mass or The Real Presence of The Eucharistic Lord,so their places of worship reflects this.A catholic Church is a place of Worship,A place of Prayer,hence silence and reverence or the “sense of the sacred” should be always observed.

The most impressive charismatic groups here are led by Indian Priests stationed here(in my opinion).These charismatic groups are so catholic and the laypersons(mainly Indians/ShriLankans) are so fervent and prayerful.
I do think that the Charismatic Catholics are “a work in progress” group.Fr.Jordan Aumann(R.I.P.)( I attended a five day retreat given by him)
patrickmadrid.blogspot.com.au/2010/09/warning-signs-of-diabolical-spirit-and.html

maintained in his book on Spiritual Theology that the “charismatic spirituality” is basically Franciscan spirtuality based on St.Francis of Assissi.But he maintained that in the end St.Francis encountered the “cave” and his spirtuality became transformed into a mystical/contemptative state after he received the wounds of Christ.That is why Mother Angelica of The EWTN fame did say things like “praise the Lord”“Alleluia” and those that are effected by the events in Croatia(the centre is run by Franciscan Clergy) come back with a charismatic “bent”.

Anyway,Granny,nice to talk to you on a deeper subject than we normally engage in–though you might consider both of my opinions, rather insane!!:p:D


#18

Hello grannymh,

I am doing this with an iPhone, so I can’t reply to a long post including a quote. Thanks for answering my questions. I didn’t realize that praying in Tongues in Common was one
of the gifts? There has been so much counterfeit in the Christmatic world that I thought that the Catholic Christmatics were faking-it. Not intentionally of course, but the fact that the members in the group I was in went to classes to learn how to pray in tongues made me think that they were trained seals.

Truthfully, with my Protestant anointing I clam-up when the leader says pray. The anointing must fall on me and I must sense the Presence of God first. Also, that group leader didn’t allow Impartion and laying on of hands to help people get baptize in the Holy Spirit, which made me even more supisious.

Just say’n


#19

In my experience, most Catholic Charismatic prayer groups do provide teaching on the spiritual gifts. These teachings allow new members to recognize the gifts and the proper use of these gifts. I find a lot of support and encouragement within Charismatic groups.

I have taken Life in the Spirit Seminars several times. There is one version called “You Will Receive Power” specifically for Catholics. It takes 8 weeks instead of the more common 6 weeks. There is opportunity for journalling. The joke when taking this version is that Catholics need more time/instruction. Actually it is a bit more in depth. As Catholics we relate everything back to the Sacraments.


#20

[quote="johndoe100, post:18, topic:290177"]
Hello grannymh,

I am doing this with an iPhone, so I can't reply to a long post including a quote. Thanks for answering my questions. I didn't realize that praying in Tongues in Common was one of the gifts?

[/quote]

Just a bit of correction. When one uses the phrase common gift of prayer tongues, the primary meaning is that everyone can receive it...we, common folk. Praying in common (with the big guys) is one of the joys given by the Holy Spirit.

There has been so much counterfeit in the Christmatic world that I thought that the Catholic Christmatics were faking-it. Not intentionally of course, but the fact that the members in the group I was in went to classes to learn how to pray in tongues made me think that they were trained seals.

There can be "counterfeit" regarding the common gift of praying in tongues. Let's just shorten that to prayer tongues. "Counterfeit" can happen when a person does not receive the gift of prayer tongues immediately when prayed over. Without proper instruction, the person becomes embarrassed when she or he feels like the odd ball. At that point, the person will say something just to be saying something.

Some years back, when a few individuals posted serious questions about prayer tongues; for example what happens physically when the gift is received, I started posting information to fit the person's questions. Baptism of the Spirit--this is not the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism--can be emotional especially when one commits their life to Our Lord. Many Catholics are not used to the idea of Jesus being their personal Lord and Savior. What else is He?:doh2:

So naturally, they are not as relaxed as they could be. This is why I make sure that I post that often a person is not comfortable with tongues until later. This "later" is usually when a person is taking a shower. Laugh, if you will. But is there a better place to relax and sing (or first pray in tongues) where no one can hear you?

Regarding classes to learn how to pray in tongues. Traditionally, the Charismatic prayer group would offer a seminar titled "Life in the Spirit." Everyone possible would be invited. There are different versions of this seminar.

The seminar was one night a week for five or six weeks. The first weeks were basic Catholic education, some testimonies, and occasionally small group discussions. There would be mentors so that a person could ask questions privately. Lately, these seminars have been condensed into a weekend or maybe a three evening retreat type thing. Usually, instructions about prayer tongues are toward the end. However, I did hear of a Charismatic presentation where it sounded as if prayer tongues were talked about and demonstrated up front.

As I recall, information about the classical Holy Spirit Gifts listed by St. Paul was rather brief. However, back then, this type of instruction was presented during a regular Charismatic meeting. "Continuing education" is important.

One interesting point about prayer tongues is that often people need to be helped in yielding to the Holy Spirit, especially the control freaks. One way I can do this is to ask the person to imitate the sounds of my own prayer tongues. I will softly pray in tongues and let the person try to imitate them. I do this so that the person can experience her or his voice mechanism making unusual sounds. Also, I let the person know that her or his personal prayer tongues may be just one sound which is repeated.

Sometimes the one imitating me will find that almost unconsciously different sounds are added to mine. Sometimes the one imitating me will find that her or his desire to yield to the Holy Spirit merges with new sounds. Sometimes nothing happens. The essential thing is that the person is yielding to the Holy Spirit, really yielding one's voice mechanism. The person needs to decide that it is o.k. to trust the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the person continues to yield to the Holy Spirit and let hapen whatever sounds occur.

The above could be considered temporary "counterfeit prayer tongues" with the goal of yielding to the Holy Spirit and receiving the real gift of prayer tongues. Nonetheless, I am well aware that both gifts of tongues can be faked. As for fake prayer tongues, I cannot judge those and I should not judge them because prayer tongues are between the individual and God. When I am personally asked if specific sounds are prayer tongues, I usually go by the person's intention to freely yield to the Holy Spirit and I lean toward the positive. This is because often the intial sounds of prayer tongues can change as time goes on according to the wisdom of the Giver of the Gift, the Holy Spirit Himself.

Regarding the Classical gift of speaking in tongues, as DebChris pointed out, there has to be discernment as a safe guard. This is done in a number of ways. When the person speaking in tongues (the Classical gift for the benefit of the community) says that the congregation should pay for an Olympic size swimming pool in the Pastor's back yard, discernment is definitely needed.

Truthfully, with my Protestant anointing I clam-up when the leader says pray. The anointing must fall on me and I must sense the Presence of God first. Also, that group leader didn't allow Impartion and laying on of hands to help people get baptize in the Holy Spirit, which made me even more supisious

.

I have some ideas about these comments. However, I need a bit of time before replying. Also I noticed your usage of Christmatic. Please tell me more about that.


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