Are Catholics allowed to


#61

The misunderstanding is how it is written. Genesis is a fact. The fact being that God created Earth, the atmosphere, the stars, the seas, the land, the birds, animals, and, most important, He created humans. How He does it is a mystery. And then Genesis is also a literary device because we can’t even begin to fathom how or why the universe came to be. All our evolution and pre-civilization historical scientists are doing the best guesses they possibly can with what’s presented to them (dinosaur bones, meteor stirke zones), but we don’t know how the Earth was created to absolute accuracy, so how can we expect a tribal people to write in a way of scientific absolutes. They can’t, and they don’t because that’s not the point of the story of Genesis.

It’s exactly why the four books of the Gospel aren’t historically complete, detailing every movement of our Lord Jesus, because the authors needed to tell the stories that need to be told, and they know what exactly needs to be told because they have the Holy Spirit inspiring them to. Jesus might have done way more than what’s told in the Gospels, but that doesn’t make the Gospels not factual. The stories are certainly not factual, and within them are completed moral teachings. It’s not necessary to have the complete, historical, and scientific records of Jesus to know what He’s teaching.


#62

Thank you for that, @rightness. The questions we are addressing here, though, are more specific than that, namely: (1) What, exactly, does @MikeySee’s dad assert about fact and fiction in the Bible? (2) Is that assertion compatible with his professed Catholic faith?

We need to know the answer to (1) before we can start thinking about (2).


#63

If a descriptive account “imparts truth, but not literal facts” that still means the account itself is fictional.


#64

God then separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” Evening came, and morning followed—the first day. Gen 1:4-5

Then God said: Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the seasons, the days and the years. Gen 1:14

Why did God make the Sun and Moon if the light and darkness were already separate? Can we apply “the seasons, days, and years” from the fourth day to describe “the first day”? If “the lights in the dome of the sky” did not exist before the dome in the sky, how was a day “marked”?

Whenever we talk about God, we have difficulties expressing ourselves. The magnitude of God’s reality is much larger than we can grasp. We struggle to express the realities of God accurately, in a way that does not lessen God’s work. The authors of Genesis have the same problem, struggling to express the immensity of God while describing the finite days of the week.

“The first day” is very much God’s day. Any attempt to contract the immensity of that day, whether it is to 24 hours, or even 13.574 billion years, fails to grasp how immeasureable God’s creative action is. “God created the heavens and the earth” is not like “I planted the north field today.” Yet that is what the author is saying. Our daily labors, so small next to God, are too large for us; we should rest every seven days to remember that God rested.

The immensity of God’s days (and nights) should be obvious in the grandeur of creation. Our own days rarely approach the significance of God’s creativity. Still we need to let God into our days, to sustain us and bring us to appreciate the complexity of Creation.


#65

Of course, but I’m just pointing out that even the Catechism teaches how to discern the literary works of the Bible in terms of finding the truth, which is what my post is about. MikeySee should take a look at the CCC for answers.

There is no divine law saying you should or should not believe it was created in 6 actual Earth days, but looking how the Jehovah’s Witness functions, literally believing it was created in 6 actual Earth days, and using literal days as a measure Jesus’s genealogy from Adam, it’s a very dangerous thing. The Catholic Church wants us to focus on the important aspects of the Bible and not just looking for historical facts. There are a lot of exceptions and narrative devices in the Bible that we have to look for, and theologians and the early church fathers have already done that for us.

We need to give MikeySee the right information to approach his dad because, at face value, his dad has truth in what he says.


#66

You’ve got it, but you don’t realize it…
When this Genesis Creation Story was written, approximately 600-650 years BC, the seven-day week, including the Sabbath already existed…the story explains, among other things, the understanding of Sabbath as a day of rest, to honor the Creator. The Ten Commandments preceded the writing of this portion of Genesis by many centuries.


#67

Today, in 2019, in the Western world, this might be true…2,600 years ago, in what is now called the ‘Middle East’, not so much…


#68

Respectfully not to offend…opinion only one does not take the bible literally…rather depending on the Church guidance, teaching and instructions.
Bible is full of metaphors is it not?
Parables?
Poetry?
Job who wrote it? etc…:thinking:
Ancient legions, stories for teaching in such times maybe?
Jonah and the whale is it to be taken literally, he was in the belly of a living whale for 3 days? :thinking:
Was Jesus really a gate? a door? Our we really sheep?
Are we really branches on a tree?
Peace :slightly_smiling_face:


#69

“Why be part of something you do not believe in?” Would be the question. The authors of A Course in Miracles and Disappearance of the Universe- (new age self help cults) operate from the premis that the Bible and all other religions based on it is wrong, and Jesus spoke to them and told them different. Questioning meanings is one thing, dismissing it all with a flap of the lips or stroke of the pen is quite another.


#70

I don’t think 6 days is the important number here, but 7.

I think 7 is used in the creation story to tie several parts of the bible, Jewish culture, & nature together showing God is in fact the author of all of the above.


#71

7=the number of Godly perfection

6=falls short, human

At least this is what my religion teacher taught me.


#72

Respectfully opinion only in what is written within his Spoken Word…
Time? Written .Until there is no longer the sun or moon…my…

Written? A day is but a thousand years and a thousand years is but a day… written our Heavenly Fathers measurements?

God’s measurement rather of… Time…is different then our measurement of days to go by and measure by, maybe?

Seems a …time …period or length of …time… is needed for perfection, or to bring to full fruition maybe? And not all days are the same.or in measuring such…Some days are fruitful some are not…as with …time…given…??..:thinking:

A thousand years =day and a day=thousand years?

:thinking: On the first day let there be.Light…but could it be a …thousand years later…when God sets out to accomplish his next creation in what follows and >>
On the second day let there be? :thinking:

Was the Sun, Moon, Stars, Seasons… our Heavenly Father’s Calendar, seems to set …times…for all his creation… was how our Creator measured and planned all things maybe… was not by… day… but done so in the perfect… …Time…? :thinking:

A thousand years is but a day and a day is but a thousand years…Time, Seasons, …seems to be more important then on what… day maybe?

Sun, Moon and Stars …do not always rise and set at the same …time… in any given day?

Days of Holiday’s …Times…to celebrate…changes from one year to the next, some do not always fall on the same day, do they?

What one is asking respectfully . Time… seem to be of far greater importance to our Creator, throughout all his creation and plans of salvation… far more important then any…day… maybe?

His calendar Sun, Moon, Stars, Seasons… his way of measuring all things, seems to be different then the way we … Human Beings chose to measure his creation by, day maybe… is all ? :thinking:

For as written…when he returns…no one knows the… day, hr …not even the season…pray it does not come in winter…
Jesus tells us…in His Time?
Jesus stating…My …Time …had come and Abraham was happy to see my …time …come…
Jesus telling us… the Time is coming? :thinking:

Sorry do not mean respectfully to go off topic…just responding to …ones reply about …days…Peace :slightly_smiling_face:


#73

Science.
Are you familiar with the Church’s thoughts on science?
Or the relationship between faith and reason?


#74

Actually… Saint Augustine (was a bishop, lived around 400 AD) did not himself take Genesis literally (and that was before humans finding out about evolution). So yes, it is possible.

https://www.thomisticevolution.org/disputed-questions/interpreting-genesis-1-with-the-fathers-of-the-church/


#75

Respectfully opinion in pondering on the word day and time…here in Geneses for one does not take the bible literally… :thinking:

Stating not to offend, but respectfully
Maybe we should not take the bible literally?
For one only…rather choosing to follow our highly learned faithful theologians all serving within our Church, their teaching given to us…to attain knowledge and understanding of his Spoken Word and Biblical Scriptures written within the bible and in following our Faithful Church guidance and instructions given… maybe? :thinking::thinking:

To measure his creation by a …day…maybe our Heavenly Father measures by…Time…in all of his Creation that is seen and unseen?:thinking:

Time…Time has no beginning nor end…does it?:thinking:

Time…never ends… but a day…each individual day… has its own ending does it not? :thinking:

And we …know for certain now… when a day begins and we know when a day ends, right? :thinking:

Our Heavenly Father’s measuring is it different then ours? :thinking:

Written? A day is but a thousand years and a thousand years is but a day…:thinking:

Was …Time… the perfect tool to measure and create all things by?:thinking:

Is our heavenly Father telling us maybe, he measures and created all by using …Time…? :thinking:

Creating all that is seen and unseen…he choose to do all things in the… perfect …Time…not by a …day…to do so maybe?..:thinking:

Written? The… time… is coming…

Written all throughout Scripture, front to back cover is the word…time …used and given to us within his Spoken Word?:thinking:

Written? Pray the time of his wrath will not come in winter?

Written? Abraham was happy to see my time come?

Mark 13:32-33 Be on your guard. Be alert! You do not know when that time will come…

Roman 13:1 And do this understanding the present time…

Psalms 31:15 My times are in your hands of my enemies…

Eccles 3:11 He made everything beautiful in its time…

2 Corinth 6:2 In the time of my favor…

Many other biblical verses where our Heavenly Father…speaks using the word…time…

Would we all rather to be given …time…then told we have one day to accomplish such and could we do so …perfectly or correct such? :thinking:

Maybe we should not measure by …day…but rather…do so by …time?

Saying…Rome was not built in a day…it took time…for all great Empires right?

All good things come in …time…:slightly_smiling_face:

The fact as written tells us… God did not create all things in …one day…but in the… perfect time… over time… being given maybe?

What was the length of …time…from the first day…to the second day?? 12 hrs?..:thinking::thinking::thinking:

If a day is but a thousand years and a thousands years is but a day? :thinking: When did the second day begin…a thousand years later maybe? :thinking::thinking::thinking:

Peace :slightly_smiling_face:


#76

While the ancient Israelites understood linear time…yesterday, today, tomorrow…the also had cyclical time. Cycles of events that start, end and restart over and over. The seven day week was both a linear event and a cycle. I think Genesis is using the 7day motif to describe a cycle of creation, not an actual linear event, to show that these events occurred by Gods plan for the earth to continue in a continuous weekly TYPE cycle of beginning, middle, end, rest, beginning, middle, end, rest, etc. that the Jews were already familiar with and understood.

Is this correct? Who knows? Science shows us that a literal interpretation of Genesis is incompatible with observations so you are free to reject all of science that can show this or try to understand a different way that makes sense and is also true.


#77

Some verses of the Bible are to be taken literal, some figurative, but all Scripture is without error.


#78

This reply is incomprehensible to me.


#79

You’re not the only one…


#80

She’s just saying in Genesis, a day isn’t a a literal day because God is using a different measure of time, some perfect measure of time that only He knows when his day starts and stops.

The pondering on the meaning of the word “time” and similar measures of time in the Scriptures, including OT and NT, is an interesting topic. The problem is we don’t understand God’s time well enough to know how to measure by it. It seems likely it may contain dimensions other than the time we know as humans.


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