Are Catholics squandering their power?


#1

Are Catholics squandering their power? Why are we buying retail? Why no Catholic buying clubs for...everything? Why am I, for example, paying retail prices to donate food to the food pantry? This is madness! Where are the Catholic credit unions? This used to be a not uncommon adjunct to stability in many parishes. Catholic nuns used to run daycares to tend children of nearby factories while at work. St. Louis bought homes near their downtown cathedral to stabilize the neighborhood. Can we do this in the blighted housing market with so many government-created homeless from the FannieMae and FreddieMac-instigated real estate collapse?

Non-profit doesn't mean no good-paying jobs. I'm not suggesting $300,000 to sit on the board of a charity hospital per Michelle Obama, but there are plenty of industries where community action can unite to bring jobs providing low-cost, high-grade goods and services. We wouldn't be having this health care crisis if we flooded the market with well-trained doctors who got their loans, not from the government, but from Catholic credit unions, see? DOES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TRAIN LEARNED HELPLESSNESS INTO HER PEOPLE?


#2

It sounds like you’d like to start a movement to reclaim some lost ground and initiate some new ideas. I say go for it! If you can raise the money/resources, and have the fire in your heart, why not try to get something going along the lines you propose? Start in your own city.

There are Catholic organizations that loan money to churches for building projects. The Knights of Columbus are one of these. They support priests in their ministries. So, if you got an eager young priest in on it, you could get some funding from the Knights and maybe other such groups.

As to Catholic Credit Unions, my dh and I belong to one, but ours is only open to membership from Catholic groups. We belong to a KC council through which we were accepted by the CCU. If you wanted to establish a Catholic Credit Union I don’t know how you’d do it, but there must be business models you could follow.

It seems to me that when we are deeply stirred by a need(s) it’s God’s way of calling us to do something about it. So, begin with prayer to see where and how God wants to you to make some of your proposals a reality.


#3

We don’t have the same power because our unity has been compromised, we are a house divided, a community in name only in most places.

Also we no longer have enough good religious to run such things and the majority of the laity are to busy working long weeks struggling just to survive.

In short we don’t have as much power as we used to, it was squandered back in the 60’s when we demolished our own house to go live in those of others.


#4

[quote="nordskoven, post:1, topic:239608"]
Are Catholics squandering their power? Why are we buying retail? Why no Catholic buying clubs for...everything? Why am I, for example, paying retail prices to donate food to the food pantry? This is madness! Where are the Catholic credit unions? This used to be a not uncommon adjunct to stability in many parishes. Catholic nuns used to run daycares to tend children of nearby factories while at work. St. Louis bought homes near their downtown cathedral to stabilize the neighborhood. Can we do this in the blighted housing market with so many government-created homeless from the FannieMae and FreddieMac-instigated real estate collapse?

Non-profit doesn't mean no good-paying jobs. I'm not suggesting $300,000 to sit on the board of a charity hospital per Michelle Obama, but there are plenty of industries where community action can unite to bring jobs providing low-cost, high-grade goods and services. We wouldn't be having this health care crisis if we flooded the market with well-trained doctors who got their loans, not from the government, but from Catholic credit unions, see? DOES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TRAIN LEARNED HELPLESSNESS INTO HER PEOPLE?

[/quote]

Interesting idea! :hmmm: I must ponder this a bit:tiphat:


#5

I would actually oppose a "catholic" BJ's or Sam's club wholesaler. I mean, basically there would be no way to restrict membership besides some sort of toltarian mass attendance checklist. And those who weren't Catholic would complain that we were hurting their families. Food-coops have risen up around protestant groups, but that's open to the entire community and usually with the help of the local goverment (which the Catholic hierarchy has no business getting aid from). I mean seriously...how would it work.

Clerk---That'll be $30....mass attendance/proof of church attendance please?
Customer---I don't have one
Clerk---Ok, that'll be $39.50 (using BJ's 15%+$5pass non-memeber surcharge)
Customer---I don't have enough money, my kid is gonna starve
Clerk---Well you should of thought about that last Sunday.

Secondly, you don't seem to know anything about college loans. Most have intrest rates subsidized or extremely low. My college loan interest rates (loans are taken out by semester) are between 2% and 6% and there was no intrest accrued or collected while I was in college. One is fully subsidzed and will not gain interest. (talk about free money!!!) For a bank/credit union to do that they'd go out of business. The government does not make money on college loans.


#6

You have a lot of really good ideas. Maybe you are being called to put your ideas into action. You could take anyone of these ideas that appeals to you, research it, and make a proposal to others in your parish. It just takes someone with the initiative to get things rolling. The Catholic buying club or credit union take administration, but they've been done elsewhere, so you don't have to invent it by yourself. You sound like you have a great deal of pent up energy that could be used to help others.


#7

[quote="purplesunshine, post:5, topic:239608"]
Food-coops have risen up around protestant groups, but that's open to the entire community and usually with the help of the local goverment (which the Catholic hierarchy has no business getting aid from). I mean seriously...how would it work.

[/quote]

Why do you think that the Catholic Church in the US does not qualify for the same government aid available to other religious organizations?

Catholics are American citizens and pay taxes so surely they qualify just as much as any other religious organization right?

And it wouldn't be the Bishops getting the aid it would be going to the food coop which presumably would be ran and administered by the laity.


#8

[quote="Brendan_McCabe, post:7, topic:239608"]
Why do you think that the Catholic Church in the US does not qualify for the same government aid available to other religious organizations?

[/quote]

The church and state should be separate. No religious orgizations should recieve funding from the government.

Catholics are American citizens and pay taxes so surely they qualify just as much as any other religious organization right?

People, sure, but the church is tax exempt. An orginization that pays no taxes, especally a religious one, should NOT be getting tax money. Taxes should fund things like fire, poliece, and military that we cannot afford as individuals.

And it wouldn't be the Bishops getting the aid it would be going to the food coop which presumably would be ran and administered by the laity.

Technically, the Bishop owns ALL properties and is the head admistratior over all organizations.


#9

[quote="purplesunshine, post:8, topic:239608"]
The church and state should be separate. No religious orgizations should recieve funding from the government.

People, sure, but the church is tax exempt. An orginization that pays no taxes, especally a religious one, should NOT be getting tax money. Taxes should fund things like fire, poliece, and military that we cannot afford as individuals.

Technically, the Bishop owns ALL properties and is the head admistratior over all organizations.

[/quote]

Separation of Church and State refers to the federal government not local government

Don't other tax exempt organizations receive government aid?

The Bishop would not automatically own the property of a lay organization and is only the head concerning matters of faith and morals.


#10

many dioceses have gotten away from peripheral investments such as subsidized housing, credit unions, real estate, even hospitals, are often now indepently owned and operated from the diocese. While there are undoubtedly good pastoral reasons for this, it is a fact that the legal climate in the wake of the priest scandals has made bishops take a hard look at assets and liabilities and unload ventures that do not directly meet the main mission of the Church, preaching, teaching and sanctifying.

[quote="nordskoven, post:1, topic:239608"]
DOES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TRAIN LEARNED HELPLESSNESS INTO HER PEOPLE?

[/quote]

what on earth does this have to do with the rest of your question and thesis, and why are you shouting?


#11

[quote="nordskoven, post:1, topic:239608"]
Are Catholics squandering their power? Why are we buying retail? Why no Catholic buying clubs for...everything? Why am I, for example, paying retail prices to donate food to the food pantry? This is madness! Where are the Catholic credit unions? This used to be a not uncommon adjunct to stability in many parishes. Catholic nuns used to run daycares to tend children of nearby factories while at work. St. Louis bought homes near their downtown cathedral to stabilize the neighborhood. Can we do this in the blighted housing market with so many government-created homeless from the FannieMae and FreddieMac-instigated real estate collapse?

Non-profit doesn't mean no good-paying jobs. I'm not suggesting $300,000 to sit on the board of a charity hospital per Michelle Obama, but there are plenty of industries where community action can unite to bring jobs providing low-cost, high-grade goods and services. We wouldn't be having this health care crisis if we flooded the market with well-trained doctors who got their loans, not from the government, but from Catholic credit unions, see? DOES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TRAIN LEARNED HELPLESSNESS INTO HER PEOPLE?

[/quote]

Hi Nord,

I appreciate your attitude, but I would suggest that we are not addressing priorities more urgent than this. For one, we don't have the proportions of religious that we used to have. Parish life is much more distant than it used to be, because the churches are bigger and people move more and live further from the church. Family breakup takes its toll as well. So even common friendships are often not coming from the church, let alone credit union loans or practical goods.

That's a more serious situation, since Jesus did instruct us to "love one another", but He said nothing about credit unions. In theory, things like buying clubs could be a possibility once a truly strong Catholic culture were in place. But it has to start with day-to-day relationships, and excellent family life.

God Bless,
Joan


#12

[quote="Brendan_McCabe, post:9, topic:239608"]
Separation of Church and State refers to the federal government not local government

[/quote]

Again. I think that Goverment has NO reason to give to RELIGIOUS orginizations. That means Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, Protestant or Scientologist.

Don't other tax exempt organizations receive government aid?

Secular orginizations that are tax exempt often are a product of goverment resources. Libraries, schools and other non-religious charities. Accepting government money would not only set bad presidence, it encourages persons to be lazy because they know that they (the parish) are not wholly responsible for the sucess or failure.

This is where the questions of "school vouchers" often comes into play with schools. If the government funds a child to go to a private, religious school they often feel as if they have to have control of what's being taught. For this reason many schools oppose the voucher system becuase it could infringe on their rights to teach.

The Bishop would not automatically own the property of a lay organization and is only the head concerning matters of faith and morals.

Actually the Bishop WOULD and DOES own ALL diocean property if in name only. If the lay orginization is involved with a diocean parish at any level they are under the leadership of the Bishop and he owns all property and must oversee it. I have helped out in six different dioceses reorginizations in three states. The Bishop is responsible for making sure that all programs, from foodbanks to religious education to the pick-up basketball league act in accordance to diocean standards. The pastor of any individual parish is responsible for making sure that his parish is acting within bounds. Now, do most places take this seriously? No.

The only things that don't neccessarly fall under direction of the Bishop would be religious communities such as Vincentians, Jesuits, Fransciscans and Salesians. They own their own buildings and are wholly responsible. However, they often honor the Bishop and join in on things like group insurance plans for vehicles and structures.


#13

I suggest we demand our political representatives to put in place school voucher plans. Also, let’s adopt the Canadian system, where the taxpayer can choose where to direct his tax dollars - whether to the government-run schools, or to the Catholic school system. And, of course, we should kick out the government when it tries to encroach on Catholic schools.

This is not going to be the government’s money, this is going to be our tax dollars going where we the tax payers want them to go, including into the Catholic school system, into school vouchers. School vouchers simply take the parents’ tax dollars out of the government’s hands, and give control of those tax dollars back to the parents, who payed them into the system to begin with. Whereas the government would give our tax dollars to unionized public schools where the teachers, instead of teaching the 3 R’s, take our kids to attend lesbian commitment ceremonies and to have abortions without parental notification, with school choice we the parents take control of our own tax money, and send that money to the school (governmental, private secular, private Catholic, whatever) we have chosen to educate our kids.

Consequently, we can insist that the government has no business compelling Catholic schools what to teach - which would of course include gay history, gay indoctrination, condoms and birth control pills, with gay clubs and Planned Parenthood representatives placed into every school, if we let the government tell our Catholic schools what to teach.


#14

[quote="Joseph_L_Varga, post:13, topic:239608"]
I suggest we demand our political representatives to put in place school voucher plans. Also, let's adopt the Canadian system, where the taxpayer can choose where to direct his tax dollars - whether to the government-run schools, or to the Catholic school system. And, of course, we should kick out the government when it tries to encroach on Catholic schools.

This is not going to be the government's money, this is going to be our tax dollars going where we the tax payers want them to go, including into the Catholic school system, into school vouchers. School vouchers simply take the parents' tax dollars out of the government's hands, and give control of those tax dollars back to the parents, who payed them into the system to begin with. Whereas the government would give our tax dollars to unionized public schools where the teachers, instead of teaching the 3 R's, take our kids to attend lesbian commitment ceremonies and to have abortions without parental notification, with school choice we the parents take control of our own tax money, and send that money to the school (governmental, private secular, private Catholic, whatever) we have chosen to educate our kids.

Consequently, we can insist that the government has no business compelling Catholic schools what to teach - which would of course include gay history, gay indoctrination, condoms and birth control pills, with gay clubs and Planned Parenthood representatives placed into every school, if we let the government tell our Catholic schools what to teach.

[/quote]

Thing is that families don't often pay enough into these vouchers as what they would get out of them.

However, tax "breaks" or even tax returns that match dollar for dollar would be different.

Islamic schools are among the fastest growing type of educational institution in America. Some of these schools have been tied to known terrorists and the Goverment has not seen fit to shut them down....only moniter.

Do you reaaaaaaaaallly want to open that can of worms? Do you REALLLY want your tax dollars to go to fund a moslem kid to go to an Islamic school?

Also public schools are often a direct result of parental involvment. Certinally inner city schools are bad, but many times a parental committee can turn a school around. I really hate the demonizing of public schools that goes on here. Many, even in liberal states such as NY, MA and even VT still hold values in high esteem.


#15

[quote="purplesunshine, post:14, topic:239608"]
Thing is that families don't often pay enough into these vouchers as what they would get out of them.

However, tax "breaks" or even tax returns that match dollar for dollar would be different.

Islamic schools are among the fastest growing type of educational institution in America. Some of these schools have been tied to known terrorists and the Goverment has not seen fit to shut them down....only moniter.

Do you reaaaaaaaaallly want to open that can of worms? Do you REALLLY want your tax dollars to go to fund a moslem kid to go to an Islamic school?

Also public schools are often a direct result of parental involvment. Certinally inner city schools are bad, but many times a parental committee can turn a school around. I really hate the demonizing of public schools that goes on here. Many, even in liberal states such as NY, MA and even VT still hold values in high esteem.

[/quote]

Where I reside now, 70% of the population is Jewish. They pay hefty property taxes, which subsidize the public schools, but then they send their kids to private Jewish schools. It's not fair. Let the Jewish folks have their school vouchers to redirect their tax dollars to Jewish schools, let the Catholic parents do the same, and let the Muslim parents do the same as well.

And while it's true that some parents would get more in school vouchers than they pay in, other families or single people pay and pay and pay, to subsidize a public school system they don't want to subsidize in the first place. I'm a single guy, no kids, and have been subsidizing a liberal socialistic-atheistic school system for years and years. Let's give parents school vouchers, and let's also give taxpayers the choice, just like Canada does, to divert their tax dollars to their favorite school system. I will divert my tax dollars to the Catholic school system, away from government schools. If the Jewish taxpayers will divert their tax dollars to Jewish schools, and Muslim taxpayers to Muslim schools, that's perfectly fine with me. It's their money, let them put it to work in the school system of their own choice.


closed #16

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