Are Catholics too high and mighty and overly judgemental?


#1

So my thread got booted which is kinda sad because i would have loved to have used some examples from it. I posted a perfectly normal and innocent question about Co habitation and Celebacy. i got several different responses some kind and helpful and understanding. others not so kind, not so helpful and not so understanding. it posed a question i have wondered since i started attending Catholic Churches and classes. Are we as Catholics too judgemental and harsh when sometimes a soft touch will sufise. Is ours the only way and do we sometimes frighten people away by being to Zealous, when we could have possibly helped them? a few hours in this chat room had me reconsidering weither or not i wanted to belong to a group of people who seriously felt the way some of the people here felt. i took a break and got to thinking. im not gonna waste years of hard work and devotion, of distancing myself from friends and family to become a baptised Catholic just because some people are jerks. however this is not to anger or offend anyone. just ask yourselves why do we have the rep we have. why are our young people often embarassed for people to know that they are Catholics and why do so many people leave the church or harbor such negative feelings towards the church. PLEASE DONT BE ANGRY OR HOSTILE IN THIS THREAD PLEASE BE RESONABLE IN YOUR RESPONSES. thats the whole point of this thread is to take a second look.


#2

[quote=TarAshly]So my thread got booted which is kinda sad because i would have loved to have used some examples from it. I posted a perfectly normal and innocent question about Co habitation and Celebacy. i got several different responses some kind and helpful and understanding. others not so kind, not so helpful and not so understanding. it posed a question i have wondered since i started attending Catholic Churches and classes. Are we as Catholics too judgemental and harsh when sometimes a soft touch will sufise. Is ours the only way and do we sometimes frighten people away by being to Zealous, when we could have possibly helped them? a few hours in this chat room had me reconsidering weither or not i wanted to belong to a group of people who seriously felt the way some of the people here felt. i took a break and got to thinking. im not gonna waste years of hard work and devotion, of distancing myself from friends and family to become a baptised Catholic just because some people are jerks. however this is not to anger or offend anyone. just ask yourselves why do we have the rep we have. why are our young people often embarassed for people to know that they are Catholics and why do so many people leave the church or harbor such negative feelings towards the church. PLEASE DONT BE ANGRY OR HOSTILE IN THIS THREAD PLEASE BE RESONABLE IN YOUR RESPONSES. thats the whole point of this thread is to take a second look.
[/quote]

I used to feel the way you do toward these forums, you know why?

Because I was in a state of mortal sin.

The truth hurts sometimes. It’s your decision to become cognizant of it, or ignore it.

But don’t expect sympathy here when you post that you are living with your fiance. I read that post and those who suggested that you live apart had valid reasons. If you don’t believe them then look it up on the internet. There are secular sources that discredit cohabitation.

There are some pretty cool people on these boards and some tend to drive me crazy sometimes but that doesn’t warrent you to call them “jerks.” Please be more sensitive in your word choice.


#3

Well, I think the reason is we have TONS of cultural and cafeteria catholics who get angry when they don’t hear what they want to hear from the Church, and from orthodox catholics.
The other day I witnessed my friend being baptised into the Church, right before the baptism, in the middle of the rite, in front of everyone present - my priest turned to my friend and said, “Now are you SURE you want to do this? Because I don’t want you to do this if you are not going to live the faith and never come to church”. I said silently an affirmative “amen!”

Also, when you are talking about “the Church” you are talking about the human and divine. The human part fails at times people either learn and get over it, or they accuse and make themselves victims.
Plus there are a lot of catholics that stay in the church that are kooky and not very good representatives of the faith. When they cross paths with fragile catholic egos or the less catechised it is a bad combination - and people put the blame in the wrong place. Often its “the Church”.
I think a lot of disgruntled lapsed catholics just think they are victims and have pride issues.
The Church points a light at our faults and some people scramble from it.
Just some more of my rambling thoughts.


#4

i believe the term “jerk” was warranted. if you read all of the posts you would see us living apart is not an option. as of now we live as room mates. hes 6’1 sleeping on a love seat. im cognizant but i dont condemn myself for making a mistake we are all human. just because i posed this question or feel the way i feel doesnt mean im in a state of mortal sin either. it is also a sin to judge. even Jesus forgave a prostitute. im living NOW as roomates with the man i love and the only man i’ve ever “known” i think thats a lot different than a prostitute, yet we are supposed to be Christ like and i was berated for seeking spiritual help and guidance? doesnt make sense to me.


#5

Don’t take the threads too personally. Sometimes message boards do not convey the actual sentiment behind the thread very well. It’s very easy to misinterpret the sentiment. If I took your posts so seriously I would think you a real meanie for saying that there must be some “deep seeded issues” in my marriage for the time I’ve had to use NFP. I doubt that’s what you meant but you did say:

THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH MARRIED PEOPLE NOT MAKING LOVE (YOU MAKE IT SOUND SO CLINICAL) IT IS AN EXPRESSION OF PASSION AND LOVE FOR YOUR PARTNER IF A COUPLE IS NOT MAKING LOVE IN THEIR MARRIAGE THERE IS A DEEP SEEDED ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED!

See what I mean? The meaning of the post can sometimes be in the eye of the author, not the reader.

That said, I can’t do anything but reiterate what the Church teaches whether it be hard to hear or not and I’m sure there are a lot of people who feel the same way. The teachings are what they are and are not up for interpretation or candy coating. I’ve had to take my “tough pills to swallow” too but it’s always been the best medicine.


#6

i agree ride but is it our job to constantly point out peoples faults and make them feel like theres no overcoming mistakes? or should we try and lift people up and help them regardless of their faults or past lives?


#7

Truth.

I also responded - charitably, I thought - in the other post you started. I hope you had a chance to read it. In the interest of continued charity, that’s all I’ll say on the topic.

Don’t confuse “correction” with being “judgmental.” Because we love and we want ALL people to get to heaven, we must correct. Don’t take that as being “judgmental.” When Jesus told us not to judge, He was forbidding us to judge the state of someone else’s soul. As Christians we have a DUTY to point out where our brothers and sisters have gone astray. That’s not being judgmental - that’s called LOVE.

True, one or two people used an ill choice of words, but not everyone is blessed with the ability to communicate well. We want you to come to terms with your prior lifestyle and make appropriate corrections in your current life.

**Continued cohabitation - even completely chaste cohabitation - that gives the impression of a less-than-chaste lifestyle, thereby potentially causing scandal, is inconsistent with the changes you need to make in your life. **

Please take this advice to heart, and recognize that it comes from the heart. Don’t look for affirmation of your present or past lifestyle. You know what’s right and what’s wrong; if not, I suggest further discernment and prayer in this area. May God bless you and straighten your paths.


#8

BEAR just so we are all clear on that quote ( i think this is where i went wrong) i was responding to a post that someone said there was nothing wrong with couples not having sex at all. i didnt mean anything about NFP.


#9

Yes TarAshly, some Catholics are too judgemental. I have even had to appoligize a few times because I got on my “bible-thumping - soap box”. But when a person on this fourm asks oppions, they should expect to receive oppions. If a person wants facts, they should ask for facts and references. IF A PERSON IS ACTIVELY SINNING and not living according to the teachings of the Church, i.e. having sex out of wedlock, then yes they will be called on it. To many people will say, “That’s OK, we’re in love and engaged anyway.” That still does not make it right. The law is the law. Would it be alright if I walked up and killed a person who was on death-row? Should our response be, “That’s OK, they are going to die anyway?” We Catholics need to stop beating around the bush and start calling a sin “a sin” and stop making excuses. We certinly should not lash out at anyone who disagrees with us when we are wrong.

If a person wants to live in sin, I can not stop them, nor would I try. If that same person asks my oppion about their sin, I will tell them the truth.

I’m glad you converted to Catholicism as did I, but if we are going to live in the faith then we have to live in the faith and stop making up our own rules.

God Bless you.


#10

It is hard sometimes for me as a convert to see so many calling themselves Catholic, and it seems that they think that the CCC is a list of suggestions :smiley: .

The manner of delivery of that message is key - the internet is the worst way to communicate. When you can’t see the expression and inflections, when you can’t know the person, it can be hard to give a good answer. You know how sometimes you just have to KNOW a person to understand what they are really saying?

There are those people in every group. There are people who come across harsh at work, at school, in our families - and these people are needed just as much as the soft answer people.


#11

ok in response to a couple of these. a church and or religious forum should be a sanctuary where people feel a common bond. not fear of judgement. who are we to “correct” someone? are you free of sin? if not dont correct me. i didnt ask to be corrected i asked for support.


#12

Tar -

In the Catholic tradition, admonishing the sinner is a work of mercy. We grow in the faith by the honesty of others. We may hear things that cut to the bone and irritate us, but in the end, it can make us more faithful. Charity is required on the part of the admonisher, but there it is difficult to find the balance between being charitable and getting your message accross. This is especially true in a message board…as there is no way (even with emoticons) to judge the tone of the message.

Peace,

-PTP


#13

[quote=TarAshly]BEAR just so we are all clear on that quote ( i think this is where i went wrong) i was responding to a post that someone said there was nothing wrong with couples not having sex at all. i didnt mean anything about NFP.
[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification. The poster didn’t say there was nothing wrong with couples not having sex “at all”. They said there was “nothing wrong with not having sex” which is true otherwise we’d be sinning if we didn’t have sex every night! This just proves my point and others that sometimes we don’t communicate well and sometimes we don’t read well either! :o Don’t take messages from complete strangers so seriously (unless of course they are from me! :eek: )


#14

[quote=TarAshly]BEAR just so we are all clear on that quote ( i think this is where i went wrong) i was responding to a post that someone said there was nothing wrong with couples not having sex at all. i didnt mean anything about NFP.
[/quote]

But if you look at your post you are being just as judgemental as you are accusing others of being. Do you know the reason the couple may not be having sex? Do you know their situation?

You are making a judgement call, yes it isn’t good for a healthy couple to refrain from sexual intercourse for long periods of time. Is it a sin? Not unless there is a sinful reason for it happening, i.e. one partner is doing it out of spite. There can be health reasons and numerous other reasons.

You are asking for charity, remember to also give charity. I personally saw only a few people not being charitable in the deleted thread. But even that was impression, I don’t know what was in their hearts when they were writing it.


#15

[quote=TarAshly]i didnt ask to be corrected i asked for support.
[/quote]

What do you want? Do you want us to say, “That’s OK.” When it isn’t? I’m sorry Ashly, you can’t have it both ways.


#16

[quote=TarAshly]i agree ride but is it our job to constantly point out peoples faults and make them feel like theres no overcoming mistakes? or should we try and lift people up and help them regardless of their faults or past lives?
[/quote]

No, I believe it is wrong to condemn and give no hope.
You mentioned however the beautiful passage where Christ rescues a woman caught in adultry from being stoned to death.
He did not condemn her, he had compassion on her, But before he let her go - He told her to “Go, and leave your life of sin”. That is not condemnation… it is just good advice. :slight_smile:
Do you think that the woman got up and got snippy and defensive with Jesus? I bet she didn’t.


#17

[quote=TarAshly] PLEASE DONT BE ANGRY OR HOSTILE IN THIS THREAD PLEASE BE RESONABLE IN YOUR RESPONSES. thats the whole point of this thread is to take a second look.
[/quote]

You are the one who is shouting.

You may want to rethink your approach to certain topics before judging others responses. Sometimes the “problem” is within ourselves. You call people “jerks” and then expect to get civil responses. If you are going to offend. Then you should prepare yourself to be offended back.

Your cohab thread was fine. But you opened yourself up to the type of “judgement”, by some, that you got. Actually, I thought most of the replies there were very civil and kind.

Co-habitation between a man and a woman who are not married is a big no no in the Catholic faith. You are most certainly aware of this. You must have known that you would receive comments from posters who have a very conservative belief in their faith.

Personally, I think you over reacted. If their comments offended, you should have just ignored them.

Plus, you say you have second thoughts about becoming a baptized Catholic because of the few people who offended you when giving their opinion on the state of your living arrangements. I would hope that at this point your reasons for becoming a Catholic would run deeper then that. The comments of a few seem pretty superficial compared to dedicating your life to Jesus.

God Bless!


#18

ok admonishing the sinner. are we all not sinners and is it charitable to admonish a person who simply needs guidance and understanding? how many people have left the church or not gotten the help they seeked because they felt judged? that to me is a wasted effort. Charity should ALWAYS be kind and productive. an example when i was going through the RCIA a friend of mine with a rough past was going through it as well. one night he opened up about his past and felt so judged and berated he left and never came back. another guy was preparing to marry a girl he got pregnant again he felt so judged and unwelcomed that he left as well. and no offense to anyone it was all the “older” people that made them both feel that way. i think in general my generation has a softer touch because we’ve had to live in a tougher world. you lose so many because of your “corrections” and “admonishments” to me this is counter productive and definatley not charitable.


#19

[quote=TarAshly]ok in response to a couple of these. a church and or religious forum should be a sanctuary where people feel a common bond. not fear of judgement. who are we to “correct” someone? are you free of sin? if not dont correct me. i didnt ask to be corrected i asked for support.
[/quote]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Not the “cast the first stone” argument! Nobody was trying to kill you over co-habitating. This is not what this verse means. Christ never said to call a sin anything other than a sin. He said to remember that none of us are perfect or should condemn someone else to hell which I wholeheartedly agree upon. We should fear judgment. Not from each other but from God. If I don’t say someone is breaking from the teachings of Christ, what kind of friend would I be? That doesn’t mean I need to go around saying “Repent sinner for you are going to hell and I’m not!” It does mean saying "Danger, Danger, Danger!)


#20

Just an FYI from the sociological standpoint. I heard a Christian psychologist state that there is evidence that this type of living arrangement is unhealthy and leads to later sexual problems in the marriage. It is bad for your future sex life to be living together and celibate. It is bad for your future married life to be shacking up and having sex. Statistics support this. Living together in any form before marriage is unhealthy.

It’s probably too late now, since you’ll be married in 7 weeks, but the whole thing is a bad idea, not just for the moral problem, but for the health of your future marriage. If you can figure out a temporary living arrangement for this short time, try and do it. Maybe that deacon can help you. Maybe someone from the Church.


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