I wouldn’t think that either the Coptic or Catholic Churches would allow it. The Copts are monophysites, and given the difference in understanding of what Jesus truly is, it would follow that there is also a difference in understanding what the Eucharist truly is.
Actually, the Copts, along with their Oriental Orthodox brethren in the Ethiopian, Eritrean, Armenian, Syriac, and Syro-Malankara Churches, reject monophysitism as a grave heresy.
My understanding is that they rejected and continue I reject the Council of Chalcedon? Am I mistaken?
Yes, the Oriental Orthodox rejected the Council of Chalcedon. However, it was not the Council’s condemnation of the monophysitism of Eutyches that led to their rejection of the Council. Rather, they were unable to reconcile the Definition of Chalcedon with their understanding of the christological teachings of the Council of Ephesus. The Oriental Orthodox are not, and never have been, monophysites.
Interesting, thank you. I’ll do some reading on it when I have time, I was unaware of this distinction.
The miaphysitism of the Oriental Orthodox has often been considered to be a form of monophysitism. However, their christological teaching, based as it is in the teachings of St. Cyril of Alexandria, is not what led to the Council of Chalcedon. Rather, it was the teachings of Eutyches, that led to the Council. Eutyches denied that Christ has a nature consubstantial with our human nature. The miaphysite Oriental Orthodox do not deny the humanity of Christ, and never have.
Thank you. Please explain this to me…I always thought their understanding of what Jesus truly is, is the same?
I would also like to know IbnFiktur’s explanation of what we believe…especially considering he didn’t know the difference between mono and mia physitism before a few hours ago.
It is important to bear in mind, everyone, that our Christology as non-Chalcedonians comes from the great father St. Cyril, who is likewise a saint in the Chalcedonian churches. His famous statement is our watchword: “One nature of the incarnate Word.”
Here is what we really believe, as prayed in the Syrian fraction:
*Thus truly the Logos of God suffered in the flesh and was sacrificed and broken on the Cross.
His soul parted from His body, while His divinity in no way parted either from His soul or from His body.
He was pierced in His side with a spear; blood and water flowed from Him for the forgiveness of the whole world. His body was smeared in them, and His soul came and was reunited with His body.
On behalf of the sins of the whole world, the Son died on the Cross.
He turned us from the way on the left towards the right. Through the blood of his Cross, He established the reconciliation of the heavenly with the earthly, and united the people with the peoples and the soul with the body.
And on the third day He rose from the tomb.
One is Emmanuel who cannot be divided after the union; there is no division into two natures. Thus we believe, thus we confess, and thus We affirm that this Body belongs to this Blood, and this Blood belongs to this Body.
You are Christ Our God, who for our sake were pierced in Your side with a spear on the heights of Golgotha in Jerusalem.
You are the Lamb of God who take away the sin of the world.
Absolve us of our transgressions and make us stand at Your right hand side.
O God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who are blessed by the Cherubim, hallowed by the Seraphim, and exalted by thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand of the rational servants;
who sanctify and complete the gifts and the fullness of the fruits that have been brought to You as a sweet savor; sanctify also all of our bodies, our souls, and our spirits,
so that with a pure heart and an unashamed face, we may call upon You, O God the Father who are in the heavens, and pray, saying,
I meant no offense, friend, I sincerely was unaware of the distinction between the various dissenters from the council of Chalcedon, and I appreciate the clarification that you and others have provided.
That’s okay, IbnFiktur. Many people make this mistake. But please do not continue to spread that piece of misinformation, if you can help it. Remember that St. Cyril of Alexandria is a saint in your church, too.
If the Copts are monophysite, so is St. Cyril and so am I. Not bad company to be in
I have been reading the letters of St. Severus, a very orthodox and holy man and I am very impressed by him. Anyone thinking the Orientals are heretics should read the writings of St. Severus. I believe he’s a saint in the Roman Communion too with the Syriac and Coptic Catholic churches.
Hi Ibnfiktur. If I might chime in here, this ^^ seems like a slightly odd thing to say – in view of the fact that you’re Catholic, and Catholics name as ecumenical 14 councils which aren’t accepted by either the Eastern Orthodox or the Oriental Orthodox.
Are you considering Oriental Orthodoxy now too? Do you know of any Coptic, Ethiopian, or other parishes of the communion within even a 100 km radius? (According to population data reposted on Wikipedia, immigrants to the Netherlands originate in the largest numbers from Aruba/Netherlands Antilles, Indonesia, Morocco, Suriname, and Turkey–all countries with virtually no Oriental Orthodox presence.)
Coptic Orthodox Church in the Netherlands:
St. Michael & St. Anthony Church, Eindhoven: koptischekerkeindhoven.nl/index2.htm
St. Mary Church, Amsterdam: koptischekerk.nl/
St. George & St. Demiana Church, Utrecht: koptischekerkutrecht.nl/
Ethiopian Orthodox Church in the Netherlands:
Debre Mewie Gabriel Church, Rotterdam: tewahedo.nl/
Eritrean Orthodox Church in the Netherlands:
Syriac Orthodox Church in the Netherlands:
Mor Ephrem Monastery lists parishes in Enschede, Hengelo, Amsterdam, Rijssen, and Oldenzaal, with contact information and/or photos for all but the last two. The monastery itself is in Glane.
Armenian Orthodox Church in the Netherlands:
Surp Karapet, Maastricht: armeensestichtingani.com/
Surp Hogi, Amsterdam: staff.science.uva.nl/~labraham/ArmenianChurch/armchurch.html
According to Armeniapedia, there is also an Armenian church in Almelo, Surp Krikor Lusavorich, but they don’t have a website and I don’t know enough about how addresses are formatted in the Dutch to really tell what kind of contact is available there.
Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Church in the Netherlands:
Kruiskerk, Amstelveen: orthodoxchurch.nl/
So it looks like there are all non-Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches represented in the Netherlands.
Also, you don’t decide what the truth is based on how close it is to you.
(According to population data reposted on Wikipedia, immigrants to the Netherlands originate in the largest numbers from Aruba/Netherlands Antilles, Indonesia, Morocco, Suriname, and Turkey–all countries with virtually no Oriental Orthodox presence.)
I think you need to do a little more research, preferably not limited to Wikipedia. Also, there are still many thousands of Armenians in Turkey, even a hundred years or so after the genocide inflicted on them, the Greeks, and the Assyrians in Turkey.
Also, you don’t decide what the truth is based on how close it is to you.
Very true. I was alluding to a comment Credo made in another thread (to the effect that he was hoping the Catholics were right and not the Eastern Orthodox since a parish of the former communion was much more easily accessible than one of the latter).
I think you need to do a little more research, preferably not limited to Wikipedia.
I would agree. The referenced data didn’t give nearly as thorough an ethnic breakdown as one would need; over eight percent of Holland’s population was unaccounted for in that respect.
Also, there are still many thousands of Armenians in Turkey, even a hundred years or so after the genocide inflicted on them, the Greeks, and the Assyrians in Turkey.
True. Oriental and Eastern Orthodox alike have a hard time operating in that ostensibly secular state, with the latter not being able to run even a seminary, right?
Yes, hoping. Still, the truth is all-deciding. A few weeks of the year I reside in Rijssen, and there is a Syriac Orthodox church there, I might visit there next time I go there.
Always did. Can’t you see my religion status? Considering Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I never specified which “bland” of Orthodoxy. I kept it deliberately vague.