Mrs. Carnelian only considers me to be one when I’ve been a bad boy. Such ‘badness’ can consist of not studying properly, wasting time playing computer games or in other trivial pursuits or giving into grumpy moods. More seriously she has stood alongside me and prayed as Mass, the grave sides of family members and when I nearly went blind she put a blessed icon next to the bed when administering eyedrops whilst looking after me for several weeks whilst my sight returned slowly. Her brother has prayed with me as well. Her grandmother would have done so but probably grumbled about it a bit but with no real malice to it, her grandmother was a bit like Esther Walton for those remember that old TV show. Fiery temper, high intelligence but rural country girl at heart and apparently quite pragmatic and hard until you realized that was just the surface. Her great-granny regarded all other Christians as heretics and deviating from the true faith and this was apparently a source of conflict between the generations at points. I offer this as an insight into the range of views possible in one family.
But some Orthodox will not pray with Catholics. What would that go to show?
On it’s own nothing beyond the fact that some Orthodox will not pray with Catholics, there may be a host of reasons why individual Orthodox believers may choose to do so. Another family example, my wife’s cousin Milena will pray with me in a non-Church based setting but would not enter or pray in a Catholic Church, I don’t consider that offensive. I simply consider that she has particular reasons for choosing to take that path and has explained them to me and I respect her integrity. Given there are millions upon millions of Orthodox believers it is going to be nigh impossible to come up with any generalized statements about how the Orthodox approach Catholics. At best one might say the Orthodox populace of a certain area tend towards certain views but even that is incredibly over simplistic.
As an Orthodox Christian, I’d like to offer an Orthodox Christian view on the history of Ukrainian Catholics…
Also, you might want to read an online book from Father John S. Romanides named “Franks, Romans, Feudalism and Doctrine.” You can google it. There is also a review of the book on youtube.
In short, Father John’s theory of history is that there was no schism between a Catholic Church and an Orthodox Church. His theory is that the Roman Empire lost its western European sector in a war to Germanic tribes. Then these Germanic tribes proceeded to replace original western Roman bishops with Germanic bishops via murder. Today, we call this church the Roman Catholic Church. But, hey, at least they don’t have warior bishops anymore!
Thank you kindly for this information on Ukraine. It gives a much needed different perspective on the story behind the history of the region. BTW, Josphat Kuntsevich is a saint in the Roman Catholic Church, so I don’t know what would ever happen if there were a reunion between Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholics.
It should be noted that it is the Frankish,…erh…Roman Catholic Church that initiated all this fighting. It started with St. Methodius (who was given a blessing by the Pope to evangelize the Slavs) being arrested by Charlemagne for evangelizing the Slavs. If Charlemagne had respected the Pope’s blessing, there would be a lot more Orthodox Christians and less Roman Catholics in Europe. And there would be a lot less fighting.
Thanks Vico, I had read the Eastern Canon laws. Each of the various Rites within the Catholic Church have their own traditions different from the tradition of the Latin Rite. Personally I never had any problem with that since it ads to the Catholic Church. The only real problem that I see from the Orthodox and The Latin Rite is harping on the differences instead of of what each has in common with each other. It seems to me if the Eastern Catholic Rites have most if not all of the Orthodox traditions and have sui luris there should be any reason not to come together since I believe the Latin Rite would allow the Orthodox to retain their traditions and Rites they have and also to have their own Canon law with little to no interference from the Latin Rite Church. But that’s just my opinion.
I don’t think the differences are that tremendous as far as liturgy and doctrine.
Here in American, a Rusyn Eastern Catholic priest Toth, led thousands of Eastern Catholics into the Russian Orthodox Church. Couldn’t have done that, if there was huge differences, it was a question of authority and not dogma.
I think the main practical differences between the EO and EC in America are that the Eastern Catholics have adopted some of their piety from the Latin Rite Catholics they have been living near for a 100 years. Eastern Catholics attending Latin school K-12 and university, marrying into Latin families, living far away from EC churches and attending Latin rite churches, etc. There was a statue of Mary in front of an Eastern Catholic church in the South Side when I lived over there.
That is the Roman Catholic point of view as they do not see submission to the Pope, the filioque, etc. as a big difference. However, the E. Orthodox may believe that the differences are substantial and essential. Take for example, the filioque. If this was not such a big difference, why did Cardinal Humbertus mention its omission from the creed as one of the reasons for the excommunication of Patriarch Michael Cerularius?
Thank you for the article @thane_coxon. I’ll read it as soon as I have a few spare minutes.
As for Father Romanides’ book (which I’ll search for) and theory, it’s interesting but unless he has lots of evidence to back up his theory, it sounds hard to believe.
Being required to accept any dogma other than from the first seven ecumenical councils could be problematic, from what I have read. I am Byzantine Catholic and we have had some of our members join the ACROD.
I converted one year from from the Episcopal Church to the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church and have never looked back. I had been drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy for years and found an amazing Melkite parish in our area (Northern Virginia). I actually visited several Eastern Orthodox parishes and the Melkite parish was even more Orthodox than the Orthodox! Highly, highly, highly recommend Eastern Catholic Churches!!! We have several Roman Catholics who are big parts of our parish and a blessing. You can switch rites after attending for a few years (it’s more of a canonical form than anything). I started a blog about my conversion journey and the Melkite Church at moreincenselessnonsense [dot] wordpress [dot] com
Thanks for your gracious response TigerLily-1. I hope you will have a few spare minutes to read the Vineyardsaker’s Ukraine article. I really like Vineyardsaker. He also does a lot of podcasts on youtube, and he presents the Orthodox Christian view very well.
Whether or not you accept Romanides’ theory of history, my point is that this is the real Orthodox Christian theory of history. You’ll also find it taught from other Orthodox Christians like Judith Irene Matta.
Muslims also hold a similar view of the Frankish church. The Mongols and East Indians referred to the Western Church as the '"land of the Franks. So it’s not simply Orthodox propaganda. I’m just saying.
Fr. Toth became a member of the Russian Orthodox Church in March 1892. Between 1867–1918 Presov was part of Austria-Hungary. Bishop John Valyi was the bishop of Presov from 1867–1918 who was Fr. Toth’s bishop. I read that the eastern Catholic Bishop of Presov, Bishop John Valyi, Slovak Catholic Church (of today) excommunicated Father Toth. Also Bishop John Valyi did not have jurisdiction in North America. At the time, Pope Leo XIII (pope from 1878-1903) had only allowed the Roman Rite in North America, and if I remember correctly that restriction was removed about ten years later, 1894 was the year of Orientalium dignitas. Still married priests were prohibited from taking missionary work out of their country.
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