Are Jesuits still Catholic?


#1

The following is from the Newman Society Newsletter of January 26, 2005
SEATTLE PROFESSORS DEFEND ABORTION

Seattle University philosophy professors Daniel Dombrowski and Robert Deltete have authored a book entitled A Brief, Liberal, Catholic Defense of Abortion, in which they argue that the unborn child is not “a human person in some morally relevant sense” until very late in pregnancy when “sentience” begins, a term they use to define the capacity to perceive pain. In one part of the book, they go so far as to assert that performing an abortion on a “nonsentient” child is no more troublesome than mowing the lawn. Dombrowski and Deltete also argue that their pro-abortion position is “more compatible with Catholic tradition than the current anti-abortion stance defended by many Catholics and by most Catholic leaders,” which rests on a “shaky foundation” and should be “altered or dropped.”

MY COMMENTS
This book has been out for almost a year. Why are these two men still employed at Seattle University, a Jesuit college? (they are)
If anyone else receives the Newman Society newsletter, it is apparent that many Jesuit colleges have strayed, inviting speakers that disagree with Catholic dogma & doctrine or are just plain anit-Catholic.
My question is: "Would you pay the exorbitant tuition these colleges charge to send a son or daughter to a "Catholic college?"
What about the concordance to Ex Corde Ecclesia? Do you, as a parent or prospective student have access to who did and did not sign it?
The diocesan bishop has some authiority here. He can reveal the above information, he can revoke the college’s “Catholic” designation. Should he? What should he do?
What should we do?
Yes, there are some very good, faithful Jesuits. Father Fessio and Father Pacwa come to mind, but they seem to be in the very small minority in the order.


#2

Father Mitch Pacwa is.I don’t know about them:eek: God Bless


#3

I took a class at (Jesuit Catholic) Seattle University once. The course was titled “The gospel of Jesus”. It was an ex-nun who taught the class. One of the many many abominations this professor taught was this.

The Seattle University (Jesuit Catholic College) instructor said, “I think human’s purpose in life is to have a good sexual relationship. Whether it is the sexual relationship between a woman and a woman, a sexual relationship between a man and a man or even a sexual relationship betwenn a man and a woman. I believe that what God really wants for us is that we have a good sexual relationship.”

Obviously the Church should throw Seattle University in the garbage can. We do not have that kind of strong leadership out here. What about young adults taking such evil teachings home thinking that now they are educated in the Church and know more than their parents? It was horrible to see all these young unsuspecting kids shaking their heads in agreement with this evil instructor and you could see in their faces the “Now I understand”. Fortunately for me I was not taking the course for credits. I only had to pay $400.00. I cannot even imagine being an unsuspecting Catholic parent paying the full $1300.00 for such and evil course. Not to mention the $18,000 yearly overall Seattle University yearly tuition. Having such an evil college to be thought of as Catholic is decieving many young adults away from Jesus.

I had a fellow Seattle Catholic reprimand me. He said, “What were you thinking! Did you think you could just walk into any Catholic college and take a course (The Gospel of Jesus), without first carefully doing background checks on the instructor and course?” I said, “Yes, I did.” But now, I, along with many Catholics, know that this in not the truth. Be warned. You cannot just send your child to a Catholic college. Do your background research. To do otherwise could cause the loss of your child’s soul.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.COM


#4

I hate to break the news to you folks, but for years, the Catholic Church has not owned colleges and universities, nor have the various orders in the Chruch (Holy Cross, Jesuits, etc.). The schools are independent, non-profit corporations which were founded by the Church. They were subsequeently turned over to lay boards. The Church has little authority over them, and what authority is has it too often chooses not to exercise (see, e.g., the mandatum issue, in particular as it was recently treated in Our Sunday Visitor and previously in The National Catholci Register).

and for whatever it is worth, do not go willy-nilly into blaming that on Vatican 2; it had nothing to do with it.

If you want to start somewhere, look to the federal government.


#5

[quote=Steven Merten]You cannot just send your child to a Catholic college. Do your background research. To do otherwise could cause the loss of your child’s soul.
[/quote]

Sorry, folks, if your child is not sufficiently catechized by the time you’ve sent him/her off to college, you’ve done a miserable job. I can’t speak to Seattle University, but I can speak to several other Jesuit institutions. First among them is St. Louis University. My wife was in a doctoral program there and she also went through RCIA there before we got married in 2000. If you’re ever around the Gateway City at 10PM on a Sunday night, stop in at St. Francis Xavier College Church for a breathtaking Mass. Better get there early.

You should always research colleges. Anyone who wants to find living Catholic faith can do so.

John


#6

The schools are independent, non-profit corporations which were founded by the Church. They were subsequeently turned over to lay boards.

this is what a jesuit told me when i asked about loyola university. mairst college in new york was officially declared not catholic so you can’t put all the blame on the jesuits. ultimately it’s our responsibility to learn about the faith.


#7

[quote=Strider]The following is from the Newman Society Newsletter of January 26, 2005
SEATTLE PROFESSORS DEFEND ABORTION

, , , they argue that the unborn child is not “a human person in some morally relevant sense” until very late in pregnancy when “sentience” begins, a term they use to define the capacity to perceive pain.
[/quote]

If they’re using the capacity to perceive pain as a benchmark, then they’d better be thinking 16 weeks rather than “very late in pregnancy.” Check the NRLC website and do a search for “fetal pain” and you’ll find some very well reserached data to support this; although this article by Dr. Wilke indicates that the unborn child can feel pain at 8 weeks.

It is always somewhat astonishing to find that most pro-abortion arguments are based on bad science and bad philosophy (really, they’re mostly based on personal belief), whereas pro-life arguments are based on good science, including of course the irrefutable biological fact that every human being has a beginning, and that beginning is at conception.


#8

The two “people” who teach at Seattle University who wrote that nonCatholic Book I think are the tip of the iceburg. Those kind of “people” are quietly viscious.

As I remember from last week: In 1965 there were 6,800 Seminarians and in 2000 there were almost 2900. What does this have to do with this thread. I will speak to what I know. At St. Edwards University in Austin ,Texas ( operated by the Holy Cross Fathers) in 1980 aprox 70% of the faculty were Priests or Brothers. But in 2000 it had dropped to about 45%. The supply of academic Religious had been depleated. Just look back at the numbers in a Seminary.


#9

Well, maybe one day we will have a Pope who will tell them: “return to being the order Saint Ignatias founded, or I will suppress your Constitutions, and you will cease to be an order in the Church.” I am sure that will wake them up, togtehr with Father Kolvenbach, their current SUPERIOR GENERAL!!!:wink:


#10

otm, John Higgins & Oat Soda pretty much addressed the reason I originated this thread in the first place.
While the individual college may or may not be run by the order or a lay board, the president is a Jesuit priest. More importantly, the local ordinary may declare the college to be secular.
The problem is one of percption. If you ask most people in the area, they’ll tell you Seattle U is a Jesuit college, whether it really is or not.
I just checked the web site and, if the order no longer runs the college, the board of directoirs is loaded with Jesuits.
Also, the point about the concordance with Ex Corde Ecclesia is well taken. All colleges and universities that call themselves Cathoic should publish a list of theologians who did and did not sign the document. I don’t think many do, but the point is moot in this case, as the authors of this dross are philosophers.
Which brings me to my main point, in comlpete agreement with John Higgins: Parents and high school seniors have to do their homework and investigate any and all prospective institutions before commiting one dollar.
Some Catholic colleges are absolutely true to the Magesterium and all Catholic teaching; others tolerate apostacy like that written by Dombrownki and Deltete. An inordinate number of the latter seem to be those administered or founded by Jesuits, at least if the Newman Society newsletter is any gauge.


#11

[quote=Strider]otm, John Higgins & Oat Soda pretty much addressed the reason I originated this thread in the first place.
While the individual college may or may not be run by the order or a lay board, the president is a Jesuit priest. More importantly, the local ordinary may declare the college to be secular.
The problem is one of percption. If you ask most people in the area, they’ll tell you Seattle U is a Jesuit college, whether it really is or not.
I just checked the web site and, if the order no longer runs the college, the board of directoirs is loaded with Jesuits.
Also, the point about the concordance with Ex Corde Ecclesia is well taken. All colleges and universities that call themselves Cathoic should publish a list of theologians who did and did not sign the document. I don’t think many do, but the point is moot in this case, as the authors of this dross are philosophers.
Which brings me to my main point, in comlpete agreement with John Higgins: Parents and high school seniors have to do their homework and investigate any and all prospective institutions before commiting one dollar.
Some Catholic colleges are absolutely true to the Magesterium and all Catholic teaching; others tolerate apostacy like that written by Dombrownki and Deltete. An inordinate number of the latter seem to be those administered or founded by Jesuits, at least if the Newman Society newsletter is any gauge.
[/quote]

I am not in disagreement with either Higgins or oat soda. The question was posed whether the bishop could revoke the name “Catholic”, and I seriously doubt he could, as he does not have ownership of it. I don’t think he could, even if he were to threaten all of the Jesuits (or whatever order, they have company) with loss of faculties.

The issue is further clouded by the quesion of who sponsors the speakers 9I realize these are professors). Some of the speakers sponsored are not sponsored by the school but by other groups, such as alumni associations. The school is in a Hobson’s choice position if it refuses a forum, based on free speech issues and the federal money I alluded to. It has been said, but not necessarily tested, that a school could have control over hiring and firing based on the mandatum (for theology professors) if it had a clear and consistently articulated policy that it was a Catholic institution, and therefore would hire only those who would adhere to Catholic positions. However, any number of “Catholic” colleges and universities lost that policy long ago, or have failed to articulate it. They are therefore walking a fine line in hiring and firing (and the mandatum). And not too many universities are so well funded that they are willing to risk $500,000, $1,000,000 or more in potential attorney fees to challenge the status quo.

It is my understanding that the Jesuits, and the Holy Cross (and et al.) do not own these institutions any more, even though they may be on the boards. Church control was lot slong ago, and there is little or nothing the Church can do legally. What it can do is make information known as to which schools are more (or less) faithful to the Magesterium, and even that could be fraught with danger of lawsuits.


#12

[quote=Steven Merten]I took a class at (Jesuit Catholic) Seattle University once. The course was titled “The gospel of Jesus”. It was an ex-nun who taught the class. One of the many many abominations this professor taught was this.
The Seattle University (Jesuit Catholic College) instructor said, “I think human’s purpose in life is to have a good sexual relationship. Whether it is the sexual relationship between a woman and a woman, a sexual relationship between a man and a man or even a sexual relationship betwenn a man and a woman. I believe that what God really wants for us is that we have a good sexual relationship.”

Obviously the Church should throw Seattle University in the garbage can. We do not have that kind of strong leadership out here. What about young adults taking such evil teachings home thinking that now they are educated in the Church and know more than their parents? It was horrible to see all these young unsuspecting kids shaking their heads in agreement with this evil instructor and you could see in their faces the “Now I understand”. Fortunately for me I was not taking the course for credits. I only had to pay $400.00. I cannot even imagine being an unsuspecting Catholic parent paying the full $1300.00 for such and evil course. Not to mention the $18,000 yearly overall Seattle University yearly tuition. Having such an evil college to be thought of as Catholic is decieving many young adults away from Jesus.

I had a fellow Seattle Catholic reprimand me. He said, “What were you thinking! Did you think you could just walk into any Catholic college and take a course (The Gospel of Jesus), without first carefully doing background checks on the instructor and course?” I said, “Yes, I did.” But now, I, along with many Catholics, know that this in not the truth. Be warned. You cannot just send your child to a Catholic college. Do your background research. To do otherwise could cause the loss of your child’s soul.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.COM
[/quote]

“You cannot just send your child to a Catholic college. Do your background research. To do otherwise could cause the loss of your child’s soul.”

I could not more fully agree with you. Both my brothers went to and graduated From this “Catholic” high school, they have both seemed turned from the Church. Funny thing is, when i went to this school at the end of the year i ended up getting into a physical fight with my teacher and thus resulting in expulsion. My brothers graduated and lost, i got kicked out and increased in holiness and i could not even be more on fire and in love with my faith!!! We need help, is any Catholic school safe?!


#13

All of what otm writes may be true, but I do know that Jesuit Father Robert Spitzer, presdident of Gonzaga Unitveristy in Spokane, has refused to allow anti-Catholic speakers or productions on the campus. “The Vagina Chronicles” had to rent space in Spokane because whatever campus group sponsored the play didn’t check with him first and were refused a theatre on campus.
It is now written policy that no group espousing an anti-Cathoilic agenda, e.g. NARAL, will be allowed on camups.
Of course, the Gonzaga web site states the university is “owned and operated by the Jesuit Order,” where Seattle U’s does not. That may be the difference.
As to whether the local bishop could recind the “Catholic” designation from a place like Seattle U, it is an interesting question. They have incredible authority within their see, and while they don’t necessarily have ownership of the name, they can certainly make statements as to the fidelity to the Magesterium of any institution within their diocese that called itself Catholic.
I’m not trying to pick a fight, here, I just think it’s an interesting question, parental responsibility aside. Any canon lawyers out there?


#14

I know numerous Jesuits who are or have been living around Loyola University in Chicago. The ones I’ve encountered, either through Mass or through lectures or presentations have been pretty faithful and orthodox, both in how they conduct the liturgy, and in teaching the faith. This is particularly true of the younger ones. There was an older one that came to say Mass occasionally who was way, way out there, but he’s pretty much retired now.

I also knew a guy who went off to the Jesuit novitiate a couple of years ago. Very orthodox guy.

So anyway, I’ve had pretty positive experiences with the Jesuits around here.


#15

[quote=Strider]All of what otm writes may be true, but I do know that Jesuit Father Robert Spitzer, presdident of Gonzaga Unitveristy in Spokane, has refused to allow anti-Catholic speakers or productions on the campus. “The Vagina Chronicles” had to rent space in Spokane because whatever campus group sponsored the play didn’t check with him first and were refused a theatre on campus.
It is now written policy that no group espousing an anti-Cathoilic agenda, e.g. NARAL, will be allowed on camups.
Of course, the Gonzaga web site states the university is “owned and operated by the Jesuit Order,” where Seattle U’s does not. That may be the difference.
As to whether the local bishop could recind the “Catholic” designation from a place like Seattle U, it is an interesting question. They have incredible authority within their see, and while they don’t necessarily have ownership of the name, they can certainly make statements as to the fidelity to the Magesterium of any institution within their diocese that called itself Catholic.
I’m not trying to pick a fight, here, I just think it’s an interesting question, parental responsibility aside. Any canon lawyers out there?
[/quote]

A number of universities are taking this tack, and as long as they are consistent, and they set up the policy before they try to enforce it, they will probably prevail. Problems come when there is no set policy, or a lax one, and they attempt to tighten down by denying a platform to speak.

although there may be differences between the ownership of the two (Gonzaga and Seattle U), the ownership is somewhat less the issue than the path the president of the University sets. The same issue applies to hiring as to speakers; a well articulated policy that they will be faithful to Church teachings puts them in the position of being able to follow through; lacking one, they could have significant problems.

Again, some of the difficuties stem from change of ownership, shich at least in part relates to receipt of federal monies, all of which has worked to secularize what were previously bastions of Catholicism. Caveat Emptor.


#16

[quote=Strider]All of what otm writes may be true, but I do know that Jesuit Father Robert Spitzer, presdident of Gonzaga Unitveristy in Spokane, has refused to allow anti-Catholic speakers or productions on the campus. “The Vagina Chronicles” had to rent space in Spokane because whatever campus group sponsored the play didn’t check with him first and were refused a theatre on campus.
It is now written policy that no group espousing an anti-Cathoilic agenda, e.g. NARAL, will be allowed on camups.
Of course, the Gonzaga web site states the university is “owned and operated by the Jesuit Order,” where Seattle U’s does not. That may be the difference.
As to whether the local bishop could recind the “Catholic” designation from a place like Seattle U, it is an interesting question. They have incredible authority within their see, and while they don’t necessarily have ownership of the name, they can certainly make statements as to the fidelity to the Magesterium of any institution within their diocese that called itself Catholic.
I’m not trying to pick a fight, here, I just think it’s an interesting question, parental responsibility aside. Any canon lawyers out there?
[/quote]

I am not a canon lawyer, but as I understand it, should an individual hold themselves out as a theologian and a Catholic, they must get the mandatum if they intend to teach theology anywhere (Catholic school or not). I do not know what personal sanctions could be applied if they failed to receive one. Beyond that, the Church would have little legal authority, but that does not preclude moral authority. The difficulty comes in determining what is being taught in the classroom; the bishops are almost relegated to anecdotal and hearsay evidence as to what is being taught, and are most likely not going to go out on a limb in making either a positive or negative reccomendation about any given school. Many of the bishops won’t even reveal who has a mandatum.


#17

I believe otm nailed the problem (or the solution), when he mentions, "…the path the president of the university sets."
The president of Seattle U. is, as far as I can determine from Op Ed pieces he’s written and other things he’s done, waaay out there.
OTOH, anybody who knows anything about Father Spitzer through either his “Healing the Culture,” program or other things he’s done on EWTN, is very orthoidox and a good, faithful priest.
The leader sets the tone and does the hiring.
Caveat emptor indeed.


#18

Here in Buffalo the local “Catholic” college is the Jesuit school Canisius. Yesterday the featured speaker on a series regarding “The Corporal Works of Mercy” was Sen. Clinton! She’s on a tour to push the pro choice movement in other places, and was invited to Canisius by the Campus Ministry, among other groups! People complained to the Jesuit president and to our new bishop, Bishop Kmiec. Unfortunately the Bishop basically said that since a Senator is powerful, we have to keep open communications with her, so he expressed no opposition to Clinton coming. She didn’t promote abortion here, but just the invite clobbered the Church’s credibility.
As pastor of the diocese, the bishop has a responsibility to try to uphold Catholic values at a Catholic institution; if he is unable to influence the college in a Catholic direction, he has a responsibility to advise his flock that the institution is no longer Catholic. He can take the college out of the diocesan directory and website, and write a pastoral letter that communicates the college’s new status. Catholics are still free to attend or work there, but they will now do so with no false illusions. For bishops in Buffalo or other cities to remain silent perpetuates a dishonesty.

PTD


#19

No. They have been in schism with the Catholic Church and the Pope for a long time. Just read Malachi Martin’s book “The Jesuits”. It was a real eye opener for me.
The Pope should just disband the whole organization.

They do not believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding sexuality, the Immaculate Conception, the virginity of the Blessed Mother, etc.


#20

Here in Buffalo the local “Catholic” college is the Jesuit school Canisius. Yesterday the featured speaker on a series regarding “The Corporal Works of Mercy” was Sen. Clinton! She’s on a tour to push the pro choice movement in other places, and was invited to Canisius by the Campus Ministry, among other groups! People complained to the Jesuit president and to our new bishop, Bishop Kmiec. Unfortunately the Bishop basically said that since a Senator is powerful, we have to keep open communications with her, so he expressed no opposition to Clinton coming. She didn’t promote abortion here, but just the invite clobbered the Church’s credibility.
As pastor of the diocese, the bishop has a responsibility to try to uphold Catholic values at a Catholic institution; if he is unable to influence the college in a Catholic direction, he has a responsibility to advise his flock that the institution is no longer Catholic. He can take the college out of the diocesan directory and website, and write a pastoral letter that communicates the college’s new status. Catholics are still free to attend or work there, but they will now do so with no false illusions. For bishops in Buffalo or other cities to remain silent perpetuates a dishonesty.

PTD

I could not of said that better myself, and am in total agreement. Not to be disrepectful of the bishops or their authority, but how many of them actually have the spine to uphold Catholic orthodoxy at Catholic institutions? Or delist them from diocesan directories if that institution’s status is such that the local ordinary cannot effect a change if something is taught or promoted in the philosophy, theology or bioethics department that is in blatant contradiction to the Magisterium or Scripture?


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