Are Muslims really the people of the Book?


#1

Now before I start a firestorm my question has to do with TRUE faith lineage from Ishmael not just a cultural or biological connection. I know that the Jews were directly connected to Abraham and spawned Christianity. This is a direct linkage. But I cant figure out how a religion that was started in the early 7th century could claim any connection with Ishmael as a religous connection. To my way of thinking, Islam in order to be considered people of the Book would have had to have started with Ismael ofwhich we have no written testimonies to corraborate this. This gap is enormous from Ishmael to Muhammad. If I am in error I would appreciate any correction on this.


#2

the people of the book as referenced in the quran are the jews and christians. the muslims claim all of the same prophets (including abraham) as the jews and christians. therefore, they are also an abrahamic faith. they also claim that the Lord’s blessing was for ishmael, not issac, because ishmael was first born. ishmael is considered to be the father of the arabs


#3

Thats all well and good. We have already established a physical connection between Ishmael and Muhammed but where is the religious connection. Did Ishmael start Islam or did Muhammad? I could see if Islam was an off shoot of Judiasm at the time of Abrahams decendents within the time frame of his passing and before Christianity but I can make that connnection after wards.


#4

There is no religious lineage between Muhammed and Ishmael Except for the Kaba in which Ishmael Built with Abraham. To which arabs make pilgrimage to .

You dont have to come from a whole complete lineage of prophets in orer to become a prophet. The Torah was given to Moses and before him there were no Jews and no Torah . Religions doesnt have connections , ancestry does. God promissed Abraham that all prophets will be from his lineage. The promise was fulfilled equally with Moses , Jesus and Muhammed.

I hope i answered your question

salam


#5

Islam is an off shoot from Jewish-Christians. The Jewish Christians who had troubles with genteel Christians at the apostles’ times…we know that these people wanted to judaize (sp?) Christian genteels and later there was a schism between Jewish-Christians and Genteel Christians. The schism started basically as race so to speak and there was great tension which separated both Christ-believers. The separation, later, involved orthodoxy in doctrine since many of these Jewish-Christians (not all) , rejected the Apostles’ teachings. After the death of the apostles, these Christian-Shia ( shia= those who seperate themselves) became more and more “Jewish” in doctrines and started applying their Jewish interpretations on the Messiah, and not the apostles’ interpretations…with time many “philosophical” doctrines were infused within their doctrines including gnostic teachings and other heresies including ebionism ecc. These Jewish-Christians were rejected by both Jews and other orthodox Christians (whether Jews or genteels) and ended up in Mecca and Hijaz and their leader was Waraqa Ben Nawal who taught Muhammad his gospel, the gospel of Nasara, whom the Church Fathers labelled as uncomplete and distorted. If you pay attention to the Quranic version of Jesus’ crucifixion, you’ll see it matches with Basilides who was probably and Ebionite. This is it in a nutshell. I got references and proof from Quran, Ahadith, Sira Nabawiyya and Biblical history but all in Arabic book as pdf.


#6

#7

and then you woke up


#8

#9

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

what am talking about is history…want proof?:thumbsup:


#10

#11

it can be hystory from the christian point of view . But its your own dreams when it comes to Islam . Now Muslims know their religion better than some Answering Islam fairly tale inventors.


#12

Well if you knwo that abraham did then please present me yoru archeological proof or else then stop asking me for what you cant get yourself .

So the bible said that ishame never settled in Mecca? Well the Quran did.

Can you bring me archeological proof that he didnt ?
[/quote]


#13

**يا ميدو يا حبيبي التاريخ فيه وقائع وثوابت
Answring Islam ملوش دخل بلنا بتكلم عليه

انا بتكلم عن كتاب يقتبث من الاحاديث والقران والسيرة والتاريخ الكنسي : تاريخ لا غير

بدل منتا بتتهجم مش تقرأ الاول؟؟ دا ربنا أمر الرسول بالقرائة;) **


#14

#15

talking about Answering-Islam :wink:

"In pre-Islamic times Ishmael was never mentioned as the Father of the Arabs." (W. Aliyyuddin Shareef, In response to Robert Morey’s Islamic Invasion, pp. 3-4;

The late Egyptian Professor, Dr. Taha Husayn, considered one of the foremost authorities on Arabic literature, while commenting on the story of Abraham and Ishmael building the Kabah, states:

“The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. **Islam exploited it for religious reasons.” **(As quoted in Mizan al-Islam by Anwar al-Jundi, p. 170 as found in Behind the Veil, p. 184, source;

… Ishmael is considered the progenitor of the Arabs. Dagon (1981) has shown that **this idea is an Islamic construction AND THAT NO CONNECTION BETWEEN ISHMAEL AND THE ARABS HAD EVER BEEN MADE IN THE PRE-ISLAMIC PERIOD. **Already in the first Islamic century, however, Ishmael came to symbolize the Islamic Umma, and biblical passages about Ishmael were taken to refer to Muhammad, the Arabs, or the Muslim community. (Adang, p. 147, fn. 37: E.J. Brill Academic Publishers; August 1997 ISBN: 9004100342; bold and capital emphasis ours)

For the historian, the Arabs are no more the descendents of Ishmael, son of Abraham, than the French are of Francus, son of Hector. — Maxime Rodinson

It is virtually certain that Abraham never reached Mecca. — Montgomery Watt

According to Muslim tradition, Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba, the cube-like structure in the Sacred Mosque in Mecca. But outside these traditions **there is absolutely no evidence for this claim - whether epigraphic, archaelogical, or documentary. **Indeed Snouck Hurgronje has shown that Muhammad invented the story to give his religion an Arabian origin and setting; with this brilliant improvisation Muhammad established the independence of his religion, at the same time incorporating into Islam the Kaaba with all its historical and religious associations for the Arabs. (Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not A Muslim [Prometheus Books, Amherst NY 1995], p. 131; bold emphasis ours)

Finally, Islamicist Alfred Guillaume notes:

“… there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost. The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources.” (Alfred Guillaume, Islam [Penguin Books Inc., Baltimore, 1956], pp. 61-62)

answering-islam.de/Main///Shamoun/ishmael.htm


#16

You guys keep talking about this Kaba and I’m waiting for Meedo and so is Irishmac for him to explain if they worship it or venerate it or what they do when they face it to pray??:confused:

He says they dont worship it. But he does not explain it so why did Ismeal waste his time building that rock?:confused:


#17

The Bible is not hystory and it isnt imperfect . It isnt because its older than teh Quran then its more correct. I have a Huge Building that has been pilgrimaged as long as people can remember and every single one in the area agrees that Abraham and Ishmael Built it. The Building still stands today and all the people who lived in the area testified that this what is commonly known as the truth.

You have nothing to prove that ishamel didnt live in Mecca except word sof the bible. Which are again just words. You have no physical proof that he lived any where else in mecca . There is no other people that would trace their ancestry to ishmael except the arabs. No area in Sinai or Jordan can have people at the time of Muhammed that say that Ishmael was their ancestor because he lived in their land.

The arabs do ! Al proof is going against you and you still bring me just words.

ana mesh bathaggem ya in jesus ana bass barud aleik. Enta 3aref kewayes in ana mesh akhla2ee kedah . we ba3dein ya ragel da ehna 3arab we enta 3aref kewayes in el moslemeen el 3arab ma beyheenoush ay meseehy. seebak men el kalam beta3 el net we el kesas 3ala elk islam we el kalam dah. enta 3aref kewayes in feeh e7tram kibeer lelmesee7eyeen. Ya ragel da ana 3andi 3 men Geranee mese7eyeen we habaibee!!

Badal ma enta tefahemhom in el mas2ala mesh zay ma homma shayfeen fe el telefezion , to2oom tegareehom?

yalla salam :slight_smile:


#18

I think there were jews before Moses. Jews were in relation with God before Moses. They just didn’t have the law. Moses was a prophet, Muhammed was not a prophet. Jesus was God incarnate.

I hope that clears some things up for you


#19

Ishmael buildind rocks…was he alone? how many years did it take him? no one noticed it? no one knew it? no one talked about it? no one asked what is this huge rock that Ismael is building? if it’s that important, and will later become Allah’s favourite place, then how come there is not mention, nothing, nothing, in pre-Islamic scriptures?:wink: as our Muslim friend Taha hussein said, it’s mere later invention.


#20

if not mistaken,Muhammad started turning round the Kaaba before the so-called revelation that it was built by Ishmael…so why was he turning around it?


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