Are not Christians dead to sin?


#1

Please this time let us study and discuss the following Scriptures, and not try to water them down just because they are not understood.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.” (I wont have enough room to finish this, but you can find it in your Bible.)

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will b left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(Romans 8: 5) “The unspiritual are interested only in what is unspiritual, but the spiritual are interested in spiritual things. It is death to limit oneself to what is unspiritual, life and peace can only come with concern for the spiritual.”

(Romans 8: 9 - 13) “Your interest, however are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made His home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to Him. Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; and if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then He who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit living in you.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”


#2

Paul sinned:

“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin. What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate… Therefore, I discover the principle that when I want to do rightm evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Miserable one that I am! Who will deliever me from this mortal body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.”

James knew we sinned:

“My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever bring back a sinner from the error of his ways will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

John knew we could sin:

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing… My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. He is expiation for our sins, and not only ours but for those of the whole world.”


#3

Are not Christians dead to sin?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please this time let us study and discuss the following Scriptures, and not try to water them down just because they are not understood.

I’m guessing, since you aren’t saying, that you think these verses prove that a real Christian can’t sin?

Can I further assume that by the admonition to “not try to water them down just because they are not understood” you are further inferring that the people on this forum (i.e. Catholics) will or have watered them down because, unlike you, they don’t understand them – that, since Catholics do believe Christians can sin, we don’t understand them?

If I am misunderstanding your question, perhaps you need to restate it so that it does not come across as condescending. Until then, no dialogue is possible. Thanks.


#4

Hello Robert,

Are you saying that the Christians claiming to be “born again” believe that they never commit even the smallest of sins from the date they claim to be “born again” forward? Are you claiming that they believe themselves to be as pure and sin free as Jesus from the time they claim to be “born again” forward?


#5

Are not Christians dead to sin? Jesus told us that we Christians should strive to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. However, Jesus also knew that we Christians would sin:

Jesus said, “When you pray, say: ‘Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. 3Give us each day our daily bread; 4and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation.’” (Luke 11:2-3)

Jesus also said, “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:14-15)

John distinguished two categories of sins Christians can commit: mortal sin and sin that is not mortal. (1 John 5:16-17) Yet even a Christian who has committed mortal sin can be forgiven, if he repents. Consider the example of the Christian man in the Church of Corinth who was excommunicated for living with his father’s wife, a kind of immorality not found even among pagans (1 Corinthians 5:1-13), but who was later forgiven by Paul in persona Christi. (2 Corinthians 2:5-11)


#6

Hello Robert,

I wanted to point out a few Scriptures which indicate that there were men of Jesus day seperating themselves apart from others as in possession of eternal life, being “eternally begotten of God” and verbally forcing their way into God’s Kingdom. When Jesus pointed out to the crowds that they were, in fact, not in possession of eternal life, they killed Him. Jesus tells us it is those Christians who produce the fruit of the Kingdom through loving obedience to God’s laws, not those who exalt themselves over others as in possession of God’s Kingdom on earth, who will enter into eternal life.

**NAB LUK 16:16 The Law. **

"The law and the prophets were in force** until John. From his time on, the good news of God’s kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in.** It is easier for the heavens and the earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a letter of the law to pass. NAB MAT 11:11

"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least born into the Kingdom of God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."
**NAB MAT 3:8 **

They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, ‘Abraham is our father.’ I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones."NAB JOH 5:39

**“Search the Scriptures in which you think you have eternal life–**they also testify on my behalf. Yet you are unwilling to come to me to possess that life. It is not that I accept human praise-- it is simply that I know you, and you do not have the love of God in your hearts.

NAB ACT 23:8

[indent](The Sadducees, of course, maintain that there is no resurrection and that there are neither angles nor spirits, while the Pharisees believe in all these things.)(LUK 14:14)(2TI 2:18)(1CO 10:1)

[/indent]


#7

The Jewish term “Pharisee” means “the separated”. The Pharisees used circumcision, the law of Abraham (ACT 15:1), eucharisteo and baptism to verbally force their way into the kingdom that John the Baptist spoke of. The Pharisees ruthlessly exalted and separated themselves from other men as God’s chosen sons in possession of eternal life. It is this lust for worldly exaltation as God’s sons in possesion of God’s kingdom that the Pharisees violently crucified the Son of Man to protect.

NAB MAT 22 The Wedding Banquet

Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. A second time he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’ Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.’ The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ Many are invited, but few are chosen." Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech.

NAB REV 19:6

[indent]For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment." (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.) [/indent]**NAB MAT 21:43 **

Therefore, I say to you,** the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.** ( The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.)" When the chief priests and** the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was speaking about them. And although they were attempting to arrest him,** NAB MAT 21:37

"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, “They will respect my son.’ When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!” With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."

NAB MAT 12:14

When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.


#8

NAB LUK 18:9 The Pharisee and the tax collector.

He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. “Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I eucharisteo that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” [indent]Eucharisteo; with the dative it always stands where there is implied a kindness done, a favor, a charis, a grace for an undeserved gift received where it appears as thanks for any good experience.

Charis; from chairio, to rejoice, or chara, joy, favor, acceptance, a kindness granted or desired, a benefit, thanks, gratitude, grace. A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of loving kindness of God to men finding its only motive in the bounty and freeheartedness of the Giver; unearned an unmerited favor. Lexicon to the Old and New Testaments, by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D AMG publishers.

[/indent]


#9

[quote=Todd Easton]Are not Christians dead to sin? Jesus told us that we Christians should strive to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. However, Jesus also knew that we Christians would sin:

Jesus said, “When you pray, say: ‘Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. 3Give us each day our daily bread; 4and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation.’” (Luke 11:2-3)

Jesus also said, “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:14-15)

John distinguished two categories of sins Christians can commit: mortal sin and sin that is not mortal. (1 John 5:16-17) Yet even a Christian who has committed mortal sin can be forgiven, if he repents. Consider the example of the Christian man in the Church of Corinth who was excommunicated for living with his father’s wife, a kind of immorality not found even among pagans (1 Corinthians 5:1-13), but who was later forgiven by Paul in persona Christi. (2 Corinthians 2:5-11)

[/quote]

Please this time let us study and discuss the following Scriptures, and not try to water them down just because they are not understood.
Bob


#10

[quote=Steven Merten]Hello Robert,

Please this time let us study and discuss the following Scriptures, and not try to water them down just because they are not understood.

Are you saying that the Christians claiming to be “born again” believe that they never commit even the smallest of sins from the date they claim to be “born again” forward? Are you claiming that they believe themselves to be as pure and sin free as Jesus from the time they claim to be “born again” forward?
[/quote]

(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”


#11

Bob,

You start your post by saying “let’s discuss…not water down…”, yet when folks post anything that appears to contradict or question your belief, you simply repeat the request to discuss and not water down.

It appears that your definition of discuss is “let me tell you what I believe, and then let me tell you what I believe”

This is not discussion or even debate. It is pontificating.

[quote=Robert Heibel]Please this time let us study and discuss the following Scriptures, and not try to water them down just because they are not understood.
[/quote]


#12

Could you expound a little more in your own words? In my previous church-admittedly very fundamentalist-the pastor at one point seemed to be saying that Christians could not sin. As he spent many other sermons warning us away from doing activities that caused sin, I became completly confused.:confused:

Bible verses are very good, but sometimes a little explanation as to your point is needed.

Are you saying that you don’t sin?:confused:


#13

[quote=MikeMaturenMDiv]You start your post by saying “let’s discuss…not water down…”, yet when folks post anything that appears to contradict or question your belief, you simply repeat the request to discuss and not water down.
[/quote]

That’s because only his understanding of Scripture is correct. At least he’s being charitable and noting that others who disagree only do so because the verses “are not understood” by them.

– Mark L. Chance.


#14

There are many Scriptures that tell us Christians are dead to sin. I think maybe I should share what sort of sin I understand to be one that leads to death. Paul lists some of the sins that lead to death.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

Hebrew give us some understanding that it isn’t the person who can’t sin, but the Holy Spirit who lives in a person who won’t let the person sin. Paul does a good job of explaining all this in Romans 7& 8

(Romans 8: 9 - 13) “Your interest, however are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made His home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to Him. Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; and if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then He who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit living in you.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will b left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

You asked if I personally sin. If I know something is wrong and I have a chance to make a choice I would be scared to death to do what is wrong. I have found over the last thirty years the Holy Spirit has always led5 me away from committing any sin. You need to read again what happened to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. This should make a great fear come on everyone.
Robert


#15

I was asked last night…

We Catholics believe that we have infused righteousness, and if we partake of the sacraments etc… we can have a strong moral certitude/hope of being presently saved. Now the guy said if we hold that we are in full communion with the Real mystical Body of Christ, and it is Christ who lives in us, how then can we still sin (I am thinking specifically of venial-which all of us have, but yet Christ did not)

I put the same question to him…
He claims his flesh can still sin, but as his righteousness is forensically/legally declared by God, then he can be in Christ and yet his old fleshy man can still sin, but God does not look at the sin, because God only sees Christ when he looks at the sinner who trusts on Christ.

This i believe is related to the tread and thus I am hoping some of the brothers and sisters can offer some thoughts.

m.


#16

Praise God that you have lived thirty years without sin! A wonderful testimony to your faithfulness to the Holy Spirit. To you and those like you Jesus says, as he said to the churches in Smyrna and Philadelphia, “Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10) and “[size=2]hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.” (Revelation 3:11) [/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]However, to those Christians who have not been so faithful to the Holy Spirit, Jesus does not yet say, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41) but Jesus says, as he said to the churches in Ephesus, Pergamum, Thyatria, Sardis, and Laodicea, “Repent! … before it’s too late.” (Revelation 2:5, 16, 22; 3:3, 19)[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]For the mathematically inclined: If the seven churches of Revelation are an accurate sample, only two out of seven or about 29% of the apostolic churches were faithful to the Holy Spirit and about 71% of the churches needed to seriously repent.[/size]

It should be noted that, except for a few sinful Christians whom God made examples of (namely, Ananias and Sapphira mentioned in Acts 5:1-11 and some of the sinful Christians at Corinth mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:30), God is long-suffering and usually gives sinful Christians “a chance to repent” (Revelation 2:21), even if their likelihood of repenting is low or for all practical purposes impossible, because, as Scripture relates:23Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? (Ezekiel 18:23)


#17

[quote=blackfish152]I was asked last night…

We Catholics believe that we have infused righteousness, and if we partake of the sacraments etc… we can have a strong moral certitude/hope of being presently saved. Now the guy said if we hold that we are in full communion with the Real mystical Body of Christ, and it is Christ who lives in us, how then can we still sin (I am thinking specifically of venial-which all of us have, but yet Christ did not)

I put the same question to him…
He claims his flesh can still sin, but as his righteousness is forensically/legally declared by God, then he can be in Christ and yet his old fleshy man can still sin, but God does not look at the sin, because God only sees Christ when he looks at the sinner who trusts on Christ.

This i believe is related to the tread and thus I am hoping some of the brothers and sisters can offer some thoughts.

m.

[/quote]

Those are nice comforting words, but???

Read the following Scriptures and see what happens to people who don’t live the Word.

Jesus said (John 14:21) “anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.” Who does God Love?

(John 14:24) “Those who do not love me do not keep my words.”

(Luke 6:46) “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord’, and not do what I say?”

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

(Luke 13:22) “Through towns and villages He went teaching, making His way to Jerusalem. Someone said to Him, ‘Sir, will there be only a few saved?’ He said to them, “Try your best to enter by the narrow door, because, I tell you many will try to enter and will not succeed.”

(John 12: 47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn Him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects Me and refuses My words has his judge already, the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
Robert


#18

In Gal 5, christians have a sin nature, in romans 12 we are to kill that nature daily.


#19

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