Are old testament saints, patron saints that can pray for us?

Can saints from the old testament like elijah intercede for us, because i wanted to ask elijiah to pray for us that it would rain seeing as how he had a passage that attributed to that, but just wondering can saints like moses, elijah, isaiah etc, intercede for us and do any of them have patronages

We aren’t sure.

Saints in heaven can pray for us because we are all part of the mystical Body of Christ by virtue of our shared Christian Baptism.

The relationship between pious OT Jews and the Body of Christ has not been defined. I’m not saying they’re NOT participants in the Body of Christ - I’m just saying the Church has not defined it.

But, hey, it can’t hurt.

hm well, just pray also that we would have rain, drought season is killing our crops, thanks for the answer, i guess it just depends on faith, to which im on the start of the road.

Umm… no, I don’t think that’s quite right. The full “Litany of the Saints” (which we typically don’t see, since we use abbreviated versions of the litany at the various liturgical occasions to which we are accustomed (e.g., Easter Vigil, baptisms, etc)) includes “patriarchs and prophets”. The particular saints that are included in the liturgy are:

Patriarchs and Prophets
St. Abraham
St. Moses
St. Elijah
St. John the Baptist
St. Joseph
All holy patriarchs and prophets

You can’t read too much into that.

The title “Saint” is also used as an honorific, such as St. Michael and St. Gabriel. The Church does not teach that angels (or OT patriarchs) are (or are not) members of the mystical Body of Christ.

You shouldn’t read too little into that, either. :wink:

The title “Saint” is also used as an honorific, such as St. Michael and St. Gabriel.

With all due respect, that’s a bad analogy. The Church has always used the appellation “holy ones” or “saints” – that is, part of the Body of Christ – to refer to humans who are associated with the Church (either on earth, in purgatory, or in heaven). In an analogous way, she has also referred to angels as ‘saints’, even though their participation in the Body of Christ differs in a particularly and fundamentally different way. For angels, the appellation ‘saint’ may be considered an ‘honorific’.

For a human person, though, the title ‘saint’ is not an honorific – it speaks to a particular objective reality: that is, the reality that they are a member of the Body of Christ on earth or in heaven. To suggest that the patriarchs – in a particular way, Moses and Elijah, who appeared astride Christ in the Transfiguration event; or Abraham, who Christ himself portrays as being in a ‘paradise’ in a parable – are not members of the Body of Christ in heaven… well, that’s just ludicrous.

The inclusion of these human persons, in a litany in which all the human persons mentioned as ‘saints’ are people who the Church asserts are in heaven, is suspect at best, and misleading at worst.

The Church does not teach that angels (or OT patriarchs) are (or are not) members of the mystical Body of Christ.

I would think that it’s more than reasonable to assert that, by including the patriarchs in a litany – which is expected to be used in public, liturgical situations – is ample evidence that they are considered to be members of the mystical Body of Christ. :wink:

That is bad theology. The Church permits (but does not teach as Doctrine) ALL SORTS of things in Her public worship, including the Rosary (the Rosary!), the Divine Mercy, and any number of devotions. The devotions I mentioned have FEAST DAYS on the Roman Calendar, but are not taught as Catholic Doctrine in any way, shape, or form whatsoever (and the Church actually teaches, as Doctrine, that no post-Apostolic private revelation can be imposed as Doctrine).

Simply because the Church allows something in public worship (and even encourages it) does NOT mean the Church teaches it.

There is a VERY BIG difference. You should learn the difference before you equate *post-Apostolic *ritual with doctrine.

For one thing, Doctrine can be cited (apart from ritual).

Please read this article from Catholic Answers: catholic.com/quickquestions/is-it-ok-to-pray-to-old-testament-heroes-the-same-way-we-pray-to-christian-saints

Here’s a small snippet from the article: The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us, “The patriarchs, prophets, and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions” (CCC 61).

Here’s another good article from EWTN as well: ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur194.htm

Hope this helps! :slight_smile:

You misunderstand me. :wink:

The devotions I mentioned have FEAST DAYS on the Roman Calendar, but are not taught as Catholic Doctrine in any way, shape, or form whatsoever (and the Church actually teaches, as Doctrine, that no post-Apostolic private revelation can be imposed as Doctrine).

I’m not saying that it’s doctrine – that’s an assertion that you’ve added to the discussion here. Rather, it’s the presence of these saints in a liturgical context that gives witness to the fact that the Church recognizes them as saints.

Simply because the Church allows something in public worship (and even encourages it) does NOT mean the Church teaches it.

I see. The Church doesn’t teach that the rosary is a valuable devotion. Boy, you sure got me there… :rolleyes:

There is a VERY BIG difference. You should learn the difference before you equate *post-Apostolic *ritual with doctrine.

I’ve done no such thing. You seem to think I’m talking about doctrine; I’m just mentioning the Church’s witness to the recognition of certain saints. :shrug:

For one thing, Doctrine can be cited (apart from ritual).

Psst… do you really need me to cite the Gospels, demonstrating that Moses, Elijah, and Abraham are held in high regard by Jesus, in contexts that cannot be interpreted in any other than that they are saints? :wink:

If you mean “saint” (a person in heaven) then I agree. If you mean Saint (a member of the mystical Body of Christ) then you are stepping on doctrine.

The Church does not teach Doctrine through ritual (and obscure ritual, at that). If you wish to ascribe to the OT patriarchs the same status as NT Saints then you are claiming a teaching which is clearly doctrinal in nature but unsupported by Catholic doctrine. We become members of the Mystical Body of Christ through Christian Baptism, which the Patriarchs did not have. If you are proposing a different mechanism for membership in that Body then you are clearly proposing a doctrinal idea.

All I have ever said is that the Church has never said. I was speaking in relation to the Mystical Body of Christ.

Aah… now I see what it is that you’re asserting!

If you wish to ascribe to the OT patriarchs the same status as NT Saints then you are claiming a teaching which is clearly doctrinal in nature but unsupported by Catholic doctrine.

Actually, I’m not, but I see where you’re headed.

We become members of the Mystical Body of Christ through Christian Baptism, which the Patriarchs did not have.

And yet, you’re proposing a distinction without a difference. As I think we’ve debated on these forums, one is justified through the graces which (normatively) come through baptism. Without these graces, one cannot be saved. The question the Church has wrestled with is how those who were not baptized may have been saved.

You admit that the Patriarchs are in heaven – that is, that they are saints. Therefore, they were justified. Therefore, they received the grace of God. Therefore… they’re part of the Mystical Body of Christ. No ‘obscure ritual’, no ‘new doctrine’; being in heaven means – explicitly! – that you’re part of the Body of Christ.

If you are proposing a different mechanism for membership in that Body then you are clearly proposing a doctrinal idea.

Am I reading too much into what you’ve written here? If you exclude the Patriarchs, then you’re also saying that no one who lived before the birth of the Church is part of the Mystical Body of Christ? Now that’s novel doctrine!

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