"Are Roman Catholics Members of the New Covenant? "

The title was named after a debate found here

protestants debate
"Are Roman Catholics Members of the New Covenant? "
youtube.com/watch?v=o8GJMfqTB2Y

this and other things cause a few questions for me.

for Catholics only

This is important to me as i have family that are catholic, enjoy church history and want as many in heaven as possible. In my opinion most Catholics seem to be saved,yet most protestants view Catholics as unsaved and non christian.

In it, at least some protestants say Catholics have never heard the gospel even. So my question than is this.

1] have Catholics heard the gospel? if so what is the gospel and what does it mean to you as a catholic?

For Protestants and Catholics

1] How do Catholics view protestants on if they are saved or not, if they will go to heaven or not.

2] How do protestants view Catholics on if they are saved?

Please give reasons** why** you view the other group as you do.

Yes, I was introduced to the Gospel when I was seven years old and attended Catechism class for a year. I was baptized when I was five and was given a bible by my God mother that I learned to read.

At Mass Catholics say the Apostles Creed affirming their belief in the trinity

ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/creed2.htm

catholic means universal so the Church and it’s members is entirely Christian in every way.

There may be doctrinal differences between Protestants and the Catholic Church, however they both agree regarding Jesus Christ, baptism, trinity and the resurrection which are discussed extensively in the New Testament.

I think as Christians we should look at what we have in common rather then what we don’t.

I agree,unless that difference is what makes us christian, that is what i am trying to find out. You say you were introduced to the gospel, what is the gospel to you?.

Certainly, the first Christians were Catholic ( a term which began to be used early in the 2nd century newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm ). And since Protestantism didn’t begin until the 16th century ( newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm ), where does that leave Protestants?

Linus2nd

For me the Gospels are a prime means of getting to know my Saviour, and a signpost for how to live my life.

I am a great fan of the practice of Lectio Divina.

I am not hear to debate, this has its response. I am hear for opinions and understanding, could you please give your opinions to the questions?.

not the books, the gospel message.

I’m an ex-Protestant as my intro makes clear. I also had the good fortune to have an extremely wise and prophetic pastor as my first pastor when I did become Christian, one Reverend Robert Missenden. His name won’t mean anything to the readers on this forum, but it would to older figures in Protestant church circles in Queensland, Australia.

He was then Presbyterian, but my understanding is that he was trained as a Methodist.

Towards the end of his life (died January 1992), we were talking about things Catholic and Protestant. He made a couple of comments, and bear in mind that he was a Protestant -

  1. “I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven. I don’t think God accepts the division of His church the way we do… the Reformation was easily the most violent episode in Church history.” William Shirer in “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” for example quoted the decline of the population in Germany in the century following the Luther’s theses as going from about 16 million to 6 million, mostly due to the effects of “religious war”.

And the Protestant armies had as much to do with that, if not more, than the Catholic.

  1. “Protestants can be quite arrogant about Catholics and the Catholic Church.”

  2. “Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church.” Lying is a sin incidentally - I hope Protestants are sure of their facts before they start telling lies about Catholics. I don’t think God’s going to be impressed by ignorance when they’re too lazy to check the facts, and simply repeat what someone else has told them.

Sometime after he died, he briefly appeared to me in a vision, and said “We’re not in heaven. We’re all in Purgatory.” Then he added, “Oh, we’re not suffering any pain, so you don’t have to worry about that! It’s pretty good around here!” And here he looked rather impressed. But then he repeated “But we’re not in heaven”. Then he just disappeared.

Now that’s private revelation, so you can do what you like with it.

Speaking for myself, I don’t think Protestants get to heaven. In fact, I think they get a rude shock when they die, and find the very church some of them so much despised is in fact the historical church founded on Peter (which they can look up any time in the Scriptures they say they believe), and which has continued to this day, despite the fact the proud gates of Hades have always tried to destroy it, both by violence without, and by corruption and heresy within. I think they get a rude shock when they also find Purgatory exists, and that NOTHING gets into heaven unless it is PERFECT. Full stop.

Yet this is not the reason I became Catholic. To be sure, I had been dissatisfied with the Protestant churches I experienced after the pastor died, and I moved away from his area, but mostly it was just a persistent spiritual push. I resisted in fact, but eventually I had an argument with a protestant pastor when I gave a personal testimony way back in the mid 90’s sometime in which I included the comment "… I think we’re going to have a lot of trouble with the Moslems… ". It upset his congregation apparently. Well, I wonder what’s happened since? It won’t make any difference, as he’s probably forgotten about it.

But it was the straw that broke the camel’s back as far as I was concerned, and I decided I’d better do what God wanted, and join the original Church.

thanks for answering questions.

“Catholics are not only members of the New Covenant, but are the original members of the New Covenant”

I sure hope so.

“Simply ignorance, which is curable, thank goodness!”

I pray it is ignorance,not truth.

"We hear the Gospel in Mass every week. All Catholic parishes that I know of have Bible studies. I have read the New Testament three times, the Old Testament once. If Catholics feel that they don’t know the Gospel, it’s their own fault. No one is discouraging them from reading it.

What is the Gospel? What does it mean to me? I’m not sure how to answer, but I imagine it means to me the same as it means to protestants. They are eyewitness accounts of some events in the ministry of Jesus. What most protestants don’t understand is that while the Bible is great and indispensable, something we all can agree upon, we Catholics have more than the Bible. The Bible is just part of our relationship with our Lord. We have traditions handed down from the apostles, like all the ancient churches do - Coptic, Orthodox, etc. The more recent branches of Christianity only have the Bible, so they place extreme value on it, even to point of (seemingly) worshipping it. Catholics view the Scriptures as half the story, the tradition is the other half and the two complement and reinforce each other. The tradition is testimony to the veracity of the Scriptures and vice versa"

glad to hear the first part that is great news.

By gospel, i dont mean the gospel books but the gospel message. So far it appears that Catholics have not heard the gospel.

"I view Protestants as having the potential for being saved, but they unfortunately lack access to the sacraments that Jesus gave us in order to make our salvation easier to achieve. The fact is, we all have to do good works, and avoid evil. Our works matter very much. We will be judged on our works, Revelation says. The sacraments help us in the “works” department. Protestants have no access to these. It will be harder for them to get to heaven. The sacraments and saintly intercession give Catholics many more avenues to Jesus and grace. "

so salvation is works based and must be achieved,than im afraid you have not hear or received the gospel message from my point of view.

"We all know the answer to that! "

seems so.

thanks for response, just to be clear i am hoping that protestants by and large are wrong about Catholics, i want what they say to be wrong about Catholics especially about salvation.

you answered one question,would you mind answering the other for me, i would like your opinion. Also may i suggest to stop looking to the church [catholic or protestant] and look to jesus?.

This begs the question, what do you mean by the Gospel exactly?

Catholics of course know that Revelation is larger than that part of it which was put into writing and eventually accepted as the canonical New Testament books by the Catholic Church in the 3-4 Century.

If by Gospel, you mean the encounter with the living Christ who nourishes us with his Word and Sacrament(His Body and Blood in the Eucharist) then yes. I would say that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have unparalleled access to this ‘Gospel’. As Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI said: “We have come to believe in God’s love: in these words the Christian can express the fundamental decision of his life. Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”

The transformative power of a relationship with Christ through being a member of the Church He founded is, or should be, at the heart of every Catholics life. But then you get lapsed and lukewarm protestants as well…

Yes Catholics are part of the New covenant. The covenant was done for everyone to be a part of it, with the Catholic Church leading the Way

My opinion is that I would like to see some backup for your statement that “MOST protestants view Catholics as unsaved and NON CHRISTIAN.”

I think most Protestants, with the exception of some of the more radical fundamentalists, have a much better understanding of Christianity than that.

As a Catholic in love with Jesus and the Gospel I find it so incredibly hurtful that anyone would say or believe I wasn’t a Christian and didn’t know the Gospel, frankly saying that Catholics don’t know the Gospel is bearing false witness against us and a sin. Catholic view of salvation is different than Protestants, the fact that God breathes on man only twice in sacred scripture, first in Genesis and then again in John 20:22-23 kind of shows how important the Sacrament of Reconciliation is to the human race. I work out my salvation like Saint Paul says with fear and trembling.

That’s just not true. It may seem that way because the anti-Catholics are very noisy, but they are no longer anywhere near a majority of all Protestants.

Edwin

We hear the Gospel at every Mass. We are also strongly encouraged to read the Bible.

The Catholic Chirch teaches that we have the fullness of truth–that we have the Gospel message in its entirety. I certainly found this to be the case when I moved from a Protestant church to the Catholic Church. That was 18 years ago and I am still learning more about God’s truth–that’s how much there is here :slight_smile:

1] have Catholics heard the gospel? if so what is the gospel and what does it mean to you as a catholic?

I think that most Catholics who have exposure to their Faith have heard the central message, which is that Christ, God Himself, humbled Himself to become Man so that He could redeem us and open the gates of Heaven for us, so that we could once again be in union with God.

I would like to add that many Catholics who grew up in the 60s and 70s were not sufficiently exposed to Catholic teaching, and now their children and grandchildren are not, so there are a lot of Catholics who do not know what they need to know. This is very sad, and is due to cultural shifts rather than to the Church.

For Protestants and Catholics

1] How do Catholics view protestants on if they are saved or not, if they will go to heaven or not.

I believe that all those who respond to God’s grace may be able to enter Heaven; however, it is much more difficult for them since they do not have the information and the sacramental graces one gets from the Catholic Church.

2] How do protestants view Catholics on if they are saved?

I have run into some Protestants who believe one and some who believe the other.

Please give reasons** why** you view the other group as you do.

I have met so many Protestants who have such a love for Christ that I can readily understand the Church’s teaching on their salvation. I believe God really blessed me by drawing me into the Church His Son founded for us, and I know He wants to bless every one of us in this way.

That’s just not true. It may seem that way because the anti-Catholics are very noisy, but they are no longer anywhere near a majority of all Protestants.

Edwin

I really appreciate an honest and open dialogue like this. Thank you total relism.

I’ve not time to watch this debate for now, but I’ll answer the questions below (since you’re asking for a Catholic perspective).

The Gospel message - the heart and soul of it - is that Jesus Christ died for our sins.
Why did he die? Because our sins merited death and only death will be satisfactory as payment for sin.
Why did he die for us? So that we might turn from our sins, embrace Him, and follow Him into eternal life.
What must I do to be saved?
In one sense, we are already saved - Jesus Christ accomplished a work that no one else can do, and once done never needs to be done again. But that wasn’t the end of His work in us - what He has finished we must cling to. He calls us repeatedly - in the books of the Gospel, in the Epistles (through His workers who wrote them), and through the Church (which I call His Church without trying to imply that He doesn’t work through non-Catholic churches as well), as well as through the Spirit - to live holy and loving lives, to participate in the ministry of forgiveness by taking our sins to Him as well as by forgiving others, and to continually set ourselves apart for God.

We are saved by Grace, the reception of Which is intimate and hidden. Neither can I know one’s Faith. It is not mine to know or be able to judge if one is saved, including myself. I should view myself with the most critical eye so that I don’t deceive myself into thinking that Christ’s work in me is complete. I don’t know the content of another’s heart so I cannot judge another. I can look upon the content of another’s life, however, and ask if they have allowed their faith into a part of their life that appears to be closed to the Lord.

While I can see their good works I do not know if they perform them out of gratitude, Faith or obedience, all of which are marks of a Christian, or if they perform them for recognition or to get a tax break, which is no different than how a non-believer would perform them. Probably the most faithful Christian performs such good works secretly and I’d never know the good they do. But we must be careful not to think that someone has a close walk with the Lord merely because he or she is nice to other people; if you really get to know someone and find they live a humble and clean life, one that is holy and loving, I think that is a better indication than just being friendly to me.

What I can see is whether they have been baptized, and I doubt the salvation of any who have not been baptized either as an infant or as an adult. Again, the Lord knows the content of the Heart, and the Lord calls us to baptism, so if one says he believes and has never been baptized, I’d say to him to be baptized right away as Scripture calls us to be.

As for Protestant (or non-denominational, since many who are non-denominational don’t think of themselves as Protestant) churches, rather than people, I can judge the content of their theology. If they adhere to a statement of faith or, for example, the Augsberg Confession, that gives me a starting point.

Are they internally consistent? For example, if they point to Scripture to support the pastor’s self-professed power to raise the dead in order to receive revelations, I know this is a false teaching because Scripture does not allow such necromancy (though Scripture doesn’t prevent the Lord from sending messengers as He wishes, for example Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration). Don’t laugh - my wife’s aunt attends such a ‘church’, and the pastors often wear Native American dress and incorporate elements of tribal dancing in their charismatic worship.

Do they reject a ‘core’ teaching? I think all Christians agree that Faith is required for salvation, even if we differ on what constitutes a Faith that saves. Is mental assent sufficient, or does one need to change one’s life in accordance with that Faith? I attended, briefly, a church that taught that your rank in Heaven has to do with how many people you’ve evangelized and converted.

I hope this gives a better idea. I think that, when you’re talking with Catholics and non-Catholics in your family, one of the best things to remember is that you’re called to evangelize, not necessarily to proselytize. Proselytizing tells them what they believe is wrong and what you believe is right. Evangelizing sends them deeper into Christ from wherever they are. Do they find Him in the Scriptures? Talk Scripture and encourage them to read and pray it daily. Do they find Him in the Eucharist? Talk about John 6 and ask what being able to receive the Body and Blood means to them. Do they find Him in inspirational prayer? Ask what their favorite prayers are, and for times when their prayers have been answered. Do they find Him in works of mercy and charity? Ask them how they see the face of Christ in the poor, the sick, or the hurting. If whatever you do makes them think more deeply on Jesus Christ, you have done the Lord’s work in that brief conversation more than walking the Roman Road with them.

As a Catholic I have heard the Gospel. All Catholics have heard the Gospel to my knowledge. Our Protestant brother can go to heaven however they will be judge by God just as Catholics will. We don’t believe in once saved always saved. I think many Protestants are in heaven. The Gospel to me is Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins. That is a short version but that sums it up.

im not hear at the moment to debate any of your points however,that is not at all what is meant by the gospel of Christ, I will not be the one to say it i want to see if any catholic knows it. It seems that debate was correct Catholics have not heard the gospel.

what would you say qualifies someone as being a member of the NC?

I would say from most places i learn from,most i talk to,most i have read from most all would say catholic are not saved and therefore are not christian. A quick Google search, type in are Catholics saved,are catholic christian etc will bring up alot on the topic. Some i have read from are debate on op

jashow.org/wiki/index.php/Should_Roman_Catholicism_Be_Considered_a_Christian_Religion%3F
carm.org/are-roman-catholics-christian
jashow.org/wiki/index.php/Roman_Catholicism_and_the_Gospel

born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm

for just a few. But could you provide me with some protestant references, that would say Catholics are christian.

I sure hope your right. Just wondering what is the gospel to you?.

i hope so, could you provide me with some protestant references that agree with you?.

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