Explain why you disbelieve. Especially concerning the “miracle” of the dancing sun?
Why don’t you believe?
I do not disbelieve in Fatima but it is a topic to wrestle with.
We are compelled, OBLIGATED to believe in Scripture.
But we are told concerning apparitions,
A Marian apparition, if deemed genuine by Church authority, is treated as private revelation that may emphasize some facet of the received public revelation for a specific purpose, but it can never add anything new to the deposit of faith.** The Church will confirm an apparition as worthy of belief, but belief is never required by divine faith. **en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition
So per Fatima if True, God performed a great miracle but according to the Church, though the apparition merits belief, belief is not required.
1 Thess; 5:19-22 “Do not extinguish the Spirit. Do not despise prophecy”
Fatima is about prophecy as well. Also, in the apparitions of Fatima, the Kids see Hell.
It’s a sweet story that Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta saw the Virgin Mary but do all of us Catholics really believe these 3, 3 children saw Hell? I myself do wonder about it. Thus, I’d say for me, there is some skepticism involved in viewing this event. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
I believe in Fatima and in the dancing sun.
I disbelieve reports of dancing suns in association with other alleged Marian apparitions for two reasons, first because these other reports are perfectly consistent with what I have known since childhood, that when you look at a bright light you get colorful afterimages throbbing around around the edges, and second because the those who report such things not only know about the Fatima incident but also stare at the sun in expectation of seeing a repeat of it as confirmation of the authenticity of the alleged Marian apparition for the sake of which they are looking at the sun in the first place.
The throbbing afterimages around the edge of a bright light are similar to, but nowhere near as remarkable as, what eyewitnesses to the Fatima incident reported seeing. Hence I doubt that the Fatima incident was a routine sensory phenomenon. Based on what I can gather about the Fatima incident, I think it’s possible people were seeing the bright-light afterimages, but it’s hard to decide based on eyewitness testimony.
A third but weak reason I disbelieve the other reports is that there are many videos out there on the internet recorded by cellphone cameras whose creators insist are sun-miracles taking place near alleged apparition sites, but the phenomena depicted in the videos are self-evidently artifacts of the recording device. The proliferation of these spurious claims harms the credibility of all such reports because it demonstrates the antecedent credulity of the promoters.
The miracle of the sun is not as impressive to me as her comment about too many
people going to hell.
There are people who don’t believe in Nazi conentration camps after viewing
the films and listening to testimonies.
I don’t worry about it. It hasn’t helped me to convert or anything of that sort and I’m not required to believe so I just don’t even really look into it.
Here is a real believer.
The Wikipedia article cited earlier states:
In addition to the Miracle of the Sun, the seers at Fatima indicated that the lady prophesied a great sign in the night sky which would precede a second Great War. An aurora borealis which appeared in 1938 all over the northern hemisphere, including in places as far south as North Africa, Bermuda, and California and was the widest occurrence of the aurora since 1709 was interpreted as the great light the lady predicted. Lucia, the sole surviving seer at the time, indicated that it was the sign foretold and so apprised her superior and the bishop in letters the following day. … en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun#Critical_evaluation_of_the_event[38
Now, this is interesting, at least one book seems to say it occurred in 1939 and not 1938. But that is another story in itself.
Does anyone here believe Jacinta was incorrupt, I read it in one book but haven’t seen it written up much elsewhere, of course, there was a photo in the book but it was not a full picture of her.
Yeah, I’m a Fatima vet, I know the story very well, really, the only thing that holds me back is that the kids were all under 10. I believe but yet, I still have some reservations. Fatima lore is fascinating, I did make one pilgrimage. The Portuguese people are rather grand as well.
Who says that God doesn’t sometimes work through illusions? Imagine the simplicity that a magician uses to make a Boeing 747 disappear in front of a large group of people – could not God do the same, using perhaps group hypnosis to make the people of Fatima see the sun dancing? What’s so hard to believe about that?
Also, I believe the Old Testament is filled with rich metaphor. Imagine, for example, the Great Exodus being a psychological journey, going from left (masculine) to right (feminine) brain dominance. Imagine the parting of the Red Sea being a metaphor for the parting of the brain into the right and left hemispheres, with the “Egyptian” getting eaten up before making it to the right-hand side.
The bottom line is that Catholicism is a religion of LOVE! Without this LOVE we are destined to live in a meaningless and purposeless world. I know you are struggling with religion. Why not wager that religion would make perfect sense if we could only see things through the eyes of God? Why not wager that Catholicism really is a religion of LOVE that provides its members with a sense of purpose and meaning? Why not wager that there really exists an upper-world that is guiding us in this lower-world to the land of milk and honey?
What I like to remind Catholic bigots like that is they should thank God for the Catholic Church every day! Because if it were not for the very Church they like to try to demonize, there would be no Christianity at all! Try it, it will silence them for at least one minute
"She [the Torah] may be compared to a beautiful and stately maiden, who is secluded in an isolated chamber of a palace, and has a lover of whose existence she alone knows. For love of her he passes by her gate unceasingly, and turns his eyes in all directions to discover her. She is aware that he is forever hovering about the palace, and what does she do? She thrusts open a small door in her secret chamber, for a moment reveals her face to her lover, then quickly withdraws it. He alone, none else, notices it; but he is aware it is from love of him that she has revealed herself to him for that moment, and his heart and his soul and everything within him are drawn to her.
"So it is with the Torah, which discloses her innermost secrets only to them who love her. She knows that whosoever is wise in heart hovers near the gate of her dwelling place day after day. What does she do? From her palace, she shows her face to him, and gives him a signal of love, and forthwith retreats back to her hiding place. Only he alone catches her message, and he is drawn to her with his whole heart and soul, and with all of his being. In this manner, the Torah, for a moment, discloses herself in love to her lovers, so as to rouse them to renewed love... She commences to speak with him, at first from behind the veil which she has hung before her words, so that they may suit his manner of understanding, in order that he may progress gradually... Then she speaks to him behind a filmy veil of finer mesh, she speaks to him in riddles and allegories... When, finally, he is on near terms with her, she stands disclosed face to face with him, and holds converse with him concerning all of her secret mysteries, and all the secret ways which have been hidden in her heart from immemorial time... "[But] woe to [those] who look upon the Torah as simply tales pertaining to things of the world, seeing thus only the outer garment. But [those] whose gaze penetrates to the very Torah, happy are they. Just as wine must be in a jar to keep, so the Torah must be contained in an outer garment. That garment is made up of the tales and stories; but we, we are bound to penetrate beyond."
(Scholem, Gershom, Ed. (1995). Zohar: The Book of Splendor. Schocken Books: New York.)
I believe though sometimes I wonder how the scenario would have played out if three adults from the Scientific Community had been picked instead of three Shepherd Children.
I know one party or political movement was strong in Lisbon and I don’t want to say they were Marxists or Communists, I forget the name. Maybe it was just Secularists.
I don’t believe in any Marian apparition.
Do you believe in **any **apparitions?
I think then more then now conspiracy would have been considered. After all children are not as likely candidates to perpetuate conspiracy. I think it’s more beautiful the way it happened. Just my take on it
What about Jesus?
Thumbs up, that is a good point that should grown ups had seen it, we might be more suspicious.
By the way, I feel very confident that Lourdes happened.
I like the story of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel as well, that is in Italy or Spain, the latter I think… I think at Fatima, dont’ they say she showed herself in a vision on the day the Sun danced too as Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. That’s why Fatima also reconfirmed the scapular…
Pardon me, but according to your quote, the Church says we are never required to believe the apparition by divine faith. We, however, have to believe it by natural faith in the authority declaring what is worthy of belief, or by the religious assent owed to the Bishops and Pope…