Are these two validly married?


#1

There is a girl whose a leader in our young adult group I’ll call “Francesca.” A year and a half ago, Francesca and her boyfriend “Teigh” got married on the beach in Hawaii by some sort of protestant minister. Francesca has received all three sacrements of initiation and goes to Mass regularly, but Teigh was baptized Catholic as a baby and never went on to practice his faith. So what I want to know, in the eyes of the Church, is their marriage valid? I noticed recently that she abstains from receiving communion at Mass now.

If not, do you think it’s wrong for her to be a leader in a Catholic Young Adult group?


#2

[quote=Orual] There is a girl whose a leader in our young adult group I’ll call “Francesca.” A year and a half ago, Francesca and her boyfriend “Teigh” got married on the beach in Hawaii by some sort of protestant minister. Francesca has received all three sacrements of initiation and goes to Mass regularly, but Teigh was baptized Catholic as a baby and never went on to practice his faith. So what I want to know, in the eyes of the Church, is their marriage valid?
[/quote]

The validity of the marriage cannot be determined from the facts given.

You do not say whether the man formally joined a Protestant Church. You do not say whether she applied for and received a dispensation to be married in a Protestant ceremony. You do not say if they married invalidly and then received convalidation afterwards. I’m sure you do not mention these things because you do not know.

Therefore speculation is pointless.

[quote=Orual] I noticed recently that she abstains from receiving communion at Mass now.
[/quote]

Which may or may not be related to her marriage situation. You cannot speculate on that either.

[quote=Orual] If not, do you think it’s wrong for her to be a leader in a Catholic Young Adult group?
[/quote]

If she is not married validly, then I would say that she is not the best choice for a parish leadership position. But, you don’t know whether she is married validly or not. So, I would say this falls in the category of “mind your own business”.


#3

the person in charge of recruiting the youth group leadership has the responsibility of applying the requirements for employees and volunteers in the parish programs, under the direction of the pastor. Assume that this person has done their job and that the pastor has approved, unless you have definite proof otherwise.

by the fact that you and others notice and comment on this woman’s condition is evidence that the circumstances have the potential to bring scandal, but if I were also working with these youth and their parents, and the question arose, I would teach the Catholic view of marriage, and also remind them that in Christian charity we are bound to put the most positive construction possible on the circumstances of an individual’s life, and are not qualified to judge others. I would assume either she is validly married, or taking steps to remedy the situation, a matter for the pastor, not me. So I would not speculate.


#4

Marraiges that appear vaild are assumed so, hence the existance of mairrage tribunals and annulments.


#5

How is this your business? What are you the Communion police? You’re checking to see who goes up for Communion? Do you have a list? Do you check the names off?

We’re talking about a Young Adult group here. In my parish that’s people from 18 to 40 with the vast majority between 25-35. And the leaders are generally elected by the participants.

As far a scandal, some people can find evil in any circumstances. Now someone is questioning the validity of a marriage, next it’ll be “They’ve been married 2 years with no kids, do you think people who defy the Church on ABC should be leaders?”


#6

[quote=BillP]How is this your business? What are you the Communion police? You’re checking to see who goes up for Communion? Do you have a list? Do you check the names off?

We’re talking about a Young Adult group here. In my parish that’s people from 18 to 40 with the vast majority between 25-35. And the leaders are generally elected by the participants.

As far a scandal, some people can find evil in any circumstances. Now someone is questioning the validity of a marriage, next it’ll be “They’ve been married 2 years with no kids, do you think people who defy the Church on ABC should be leaders?”
[/quote]

As a young adult myself, I struggle with things common to other Catholic young adults. One big example of this is living a chaste life. I have found that one successful way to do so is to hang around with other like-minded people with a similar goal. Having recently moved into this new town, I decided to check out this new Catholic young adults group in hopes of connecting with other Catholic young adults to help each in the struggle to live chastely in such a corrupt world

Now. . .

IF I find a group of Catholic young adults, and I find that some, most, or all of them are consciously deciding to ignore or scoff at the Church’s rules on living chastely, what am I supposed to do?

I’m not saying I know for sure this is Francesca’s situation. That’s why I’ve decided to bring this issue to the Forums. No one on here knows my name or where I live.

There was a very good solid orthodox priest from the city I last lived in before this one. When he moved to his new parish about 10 years ago, he found out that there were persons holding leadership positions in the parish and elementary school who were practicing homosexuals or people living out of wedlock with their significant others. Amid much protest by a lot of the parish, he gave these people some time to either change their ways, or be terminated.
This parish eventually evolved into one of the best and well attended parishes in the diocese.

NOW. . .

I have NO problem with people being on a journey of faith in their lives. What I do have a problem is people living in lifestyles contrary to Catholic teaching and holding LEADERSHIP positions in the Church.

P.S. please be more respecful in your replies to my postings.


#7

[quote=Orual] As a young adult myself, I struggle with things common to other Catholic young adults. One big example of this is living a chaste life. I have found that one successful way to do so is to hang around with other like-minded people with a similar goal.
[/quote]

That is admirable.

[quote=Orual] Having recently moved into this new town, I decided to check out this new Catholic young adults group in hopes of connecting with other Catholic young adults to help each in the struggle to live chastely in such a corrupt world
[/quote]

I think you will find that your motive for joining a young adult group is not necessarily the motive of most people joining a young adult group. Many are looking for something social. Some are looking for fellow practicing Catholics with whom to share their faith.

However, the majority will be clueless as to what the Church teaches, and many will not be living according to Church teaching. Since I was the leader of my parish’s YAs for over 5 years, I can certainly speak to this. Don’t set yourself up for disappointment by imagining that people who join parish young adult groups are all practicing the faith in the way you aspire to.

What you do not do is pound them over the head with the Catechism or walk around telling them they are sinning. You have charity. You pray for them. You live as an example to them. You start a bible study within the group and study the teachings of the Catholic Church-- and some people will come, and some people will learn, and the majority will not come.

[quote=Orual] I’m not saying I know for sure this is Francesca’s situation. That’s why I’ve decided to bring this issue to the Forums. No one on here knows my name or where I live.
[/quote]

It’s still none of your business.

[quote=Orual] There was a very good solid orthodox priest from the city I last lived in before this one. When he moved to his new parish about 10 years ago, he found out that there were persons holding leadership positions in the parish and elementary school who were practicing homosexuals or people living out of wedlock with their significant others. Amid much protest by a lot of the parish, he gave these people some time to either change their ways, or be terminated. This parish eventually evolved into one of the best and well attended parishes in the diocese.
[/quote]

It is a pastor’s job to run his parish, not yours. You are wanting to stir the pot and make accusations. I don’t think this is a good approach. And, this pastor is not your old pastor. He may not have the time, or the desire, to do what the other pastor did.

[quote=Orual] I have NO problem with people being on a journey of faith in their lives. What I do have a problem is people living in lifestyles contrary to Catholic teaching and holding LEADERSHIP positions in the Church.
[/quote]

It’s not your place to judge them-- especially when you have only speculation. If there were some actual facts then perhaps you would have something to talk to your pastor about.

I think you need to find something else to keep you busy besides worrying about what sins other people may or may not be committing.


#8

OP thread is a lot of the reason many people do not ever go up for communion,or go up when they shouldnt.

there is always one though thats keeps track,I am thinking maybe this person isnt going for possible health reasons,or maybe they have more serious convictions in thier faith and havnt had time to go to confession who knows, who cares,

As far as the Marriage goes,I was told by a priest that if both parties are Baptised the Marriage is Valid in Gods eyes.thats what counts to me he is whom i have to “Please” not the church

1KE: Very well said,

I get to start this particular sacrament soon and now i am thinking twice about doing it a second time afterwards…I dont need the gossip going around when i Teach Youth Karate classes
there is enough stuff Parents are concerned about without adding stuff like this…

Peace to all
John


#9

for anyone here who is involved in youth group, ccd etc, please teach your children that we do not spend our time in church watching others and speculating about why or why not they receive communion. rather teach them some good prayers for before and after communion so their focus and attention can be where it belongs: upon Jesus Christ


#10

In our church quite a few people stay in the pews when the rest goes up for H.Communion, I have never even thought about ‘why’…it’s none of my business…

Anna x


#11

Bill P, it is everyone’s business. Maybe if a few more parishioners told Fr. Sicko to stop spending so much time going to the movies with the altar boys, fewer would have been abused and we would not have gotten into this mess.

Remember ADMONISHING THE SINNER is a spiritual work of mercy. Marriage is a public act and when it is done questionably people talk. One of the reasons I did not want to get married at my wife’s church was the invitation would read XYZ Presbyterian Church. Even if there is a priest coming or proper papers filed, I would have wanted to let everyone know I was following the rules. That annoys my wife but if they are not trying to clear up a misconception it could be because there is no misconception as evidenced by her refraining from Communion.

Weddings on the beach are frowned upon. My understanding is that even when a dispensation is granted from form it must take place in a house of worship not a dining room etc.

Good for her that she does not commune but better yet for her to fix the irregularity of the marriage. My bet is that he or Francesca is divorced and that is why they went to a Protestant beach wedding.


#12

But are they?! We can guess, but if we don’t know for sure it’s just idle talk and gossip…I see where you’re coming from, but I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty…She could go up to them and ASK, but with the risk that they say ‘Yes, it was all above board, we got all the dispensations’-and then they’ll probably think <let her mind her own business!>…I would! And I did get married to a Catholic in a church with the full Nuptual Mass…

Anna x


#13

I have to somewhat agree with the OP. I would not want someone that I knew to be fornicating/divorced/ie in a state of mortal sin to be advising or leading a faith group. In my opinion, some people do not know that they are in a state of mortal sin and still receive communion, which may lead a friend to advise them not to do so. Also, some people think it’s just not a big deal. Maybe you could do a topic talk on what the Eucharist really is and what state of grace is necessary to receive it. Then, you are making people aware of the Church’s teachings, allowing them to knowledgably judge their own worthiness and take responsibility for their actions. No finger pointing.

Yet, like I said, some people outright ignore the Church’s teachings. No divorced or otherwise mortally sinning person would be allowed to dispense the Eucharist, so why should they be allowed to assume positions of power/authority in the Church they defy? If they blatently do this and you have firsthand knowledge of this, it is not “snitching” to speak your concerns to your priest.

It is because we “look the other way” that most Catholics in America do not attend mass, are in a state of mortal sin (birth control, abortion, divorce, fornication). Noone ever tells them that the Church is not as “flexible” as they think it is. Are we doing them or the Church a service by not discreetly counseling them? (Admonishing the sinner?) I just think that the “judge not lest ye be judged” attitude is an earmark of cultural relativism. After all, who do we most hear this phrase from: those who are in defiance of the Church.

I’m not nosy, not judging those who do not receive Eucharist, (heck, I had to refrain from Communion last week for missing mass the week before,) but I do not think that we should be allowing “cafeteria catholics” in a state of mortal sin to lead our children, young adults or anyone else in our Church.


#14

[quote=genealogist]Bill P, it is everyone’s business.
[/quote]

It is everyone’s business to be charitable and assume the best.

2476 False witness and perjury. When it is made publicly, a statement contrary to the truth takes on a particular gravity. In court it becomes false witness.276 When it is under oath, it is perjury. Acts such as these contribute to condemnation of the innocent, exoneration of the guilty, or the increased punishment of the accused.277 They gravely compromise the exercise of justice and the fairness of judicial decisions.

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.278 He becomes guilty:

[list]
*]of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
*]of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;279
*]of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.
[/list]2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

I would be so much more on board with this IF the poeple doing it weren’t so insufferably self-righteous while they did it.

I could also get behind it if they exercised a modicum of charity and didn’t make so many assumptions.

I would be in favor of it if so many of them didn’t try to beat others with the “scandal” stick to change their behavior, especially when there isn’t anything wrong wiht their behavior except the fact that insufferable, self-righteous prigs might find something wrong with it.

[quote=genealogist]Marriage is a public act and when it is done questionably people talk.
[/quote]

Perhaps those people should go to confession for their sin of Gossip?

[quote=genealogist] but if they are not trying to clear up a misconception it could be because there is no misconception as evidenced by her refraining from Communion.
[/quote]

I believe we were talking about the CCC’s admonition to

To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:


#15

[quote=BillP]How is this your business? What are you the Communion police? You’re checking to see who goes up for Communion? Do you have a list? Do you check the names off?

We’re talking about a Young Adult group here. In my parish that’s people from 18 to 40 with the vast majority between 25-35. And the leaders are generally elected by the participants.

As far a scandal, some people can find evil in any circumstances. Now someone is questioning the validity of a marriage, next it’ll be “They’ve been married 2 years with no kids, do you think people who defy the Church on ABC should be leaders?”
[/quote]

Chill.

Questions like this and any other question make up a forum. Without them, you’d have to find someone else to yell at.


#16

I vote that they are validly married in the Church.

As for Catholic Young Adult group, I think it would be nice if she were in better standing with the Church, but that’s between her and God.


#17

[quote=anna1978]In our church quite a few people stay in the pews when the rest goes up for H.Communion, I have never even thought about ‘why’…it’s none of my business…

Anna x
[/quote]

I’ve assume they were non-Catholic spouses attending with their Catholic spouse or they were in need of Confession.


#18

I just have to point out that you have to give this girl an ounce of credit for sitting out of Communion, no matter what her reason.
That means she at least knows and respects the Church’s teaching on mortal sin.

Maybe you can join the group and encourage her as leader to arrange for an opportunity to have Confession during one of the meetings. It ISN’T your business to invite her personally, but it is perfectly acceptable to make suggestions about the needs and wants of the group.


#19

Orual

God bless you! I sympathize with your struggles SO much. About 6 years ago, I was caught up with that kind of thinking myself; so much so that it bordered on obsession. One of the things that really helped me was reading the great book by Fr. Mitch Pacwa FATHER FORGIVE ME, FOR I AM FRUSTRATED. It did wonders in changing my attitude about such matters. I know how frustrating it can be to be the “only” Catholic in a group who wants to take a different, narrow path than that from which others may appear to be taking.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that it is important to be able to connect with other Catholic young adults to help each other live a chaste lifestyle. Thankfully, there are many internet resources in which you can connect with people to share your struggles with. Not only on this forum, but others as well. A personal favorite of mine is the forums on catholicmatch.com

May God Bless you in Christ through Mary


#20

[quote=BillP]It is everyone’s business to be charitable and assume the best.

I would be so much more on board with this IF the poeple doing it weren’t so insufferably self-righteous while they did it.

I could also get behind it if they exercised a modicum of charity and didn’t make so many assumptions.

I would be in favor of it if so many of them didn’t try to beat others with the “scandal” stick to change their behavior, especially when there isn’t anything wrong wiht their behavior except the fact that insufferable, self-righteous prigs might find something wrong with it.

Perhaps those people should go to confession for their sin of Gossip?

I believe we were talking about the CCC’s admonition to
[/quote]

Good post! :thumbsup:


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