Are those that undergo invitro fertilization automatically excommunicated?

You are completely missing the obvious. Adoption.

Not only are they not approved but she is flat out wrong. Whoever that lady is, she has little to no undestanding of what a soul is. If they didn’t have a soul, they would be lifeless matter. Don’t even bother praying about this as she is, to repeat, 100% wrong. :mad:

Tell them that they are persons made in the image of God and this gives them great dignity, greater dignity than all of creation, second only to God and the angels.

Tell them that the greatest creature ever created by God was a woman just like them.

Tell them that God became one of us and gave his life for them, - them personally, so that they might have eternal life with him and that this gives them infinite value. The very life of God in the person of Jesus Christ was given up so that they might be saved, and this gives their lives infinite value in God’s eyes.

Tell them that God so loved them that he Himself died for them. That’s what you tell them, that just like their parents, God loves them so much that he would do anything, would move heaven and earth to ensure that they were able to be with him.

And tell them this for me… If anyone ever says that they are worthless or that they have no souls or that they have no right to exist or that their existence is wrong then they should tell that person to go to Hell.

That is what you should tell them.

-Tim-

Some of these posts are getting off topic. If u believe the church is erroneous on its teaching of ivf, then start a new thread about it.

Michelemd, I recommend you confess your acts of ivf before receiving the Eucharist again. And if you have received the Eucharist in the past with this act unconfessed, you must also confess that u received unworthily.

LOL! I think you got this wrong. I have never and would NEVER do this. I think you read a post that I was quoting and responding to. I agree, we should not try to justify our sins. If we commit a sin, we are Catholic and have the God given remedy. The sacrament of reconciliation. I do not receive the Eucharist if I am in a state of moral sin. Obviously like most Catholics, I understand that this means I confess often. I kneel & receive on the tongue. I do understand the obligation of reverence in receiving the Blessed Sacrament. Thanks for your post. If I was commuting a grave sin, I would want someone to care enough to bring it to my attention. For it would never be my will to deliberately disobey God. In my youth, I committed more than my share but have come to study and learn my catechism. It’s beautiful and God’s laws are all for our own greater good.

God bless you and thanks for your post.

Mortal sin not moral. Typing on my iPhone.

Indeed. Back to the topic, I offer the following remarks. As you may know, the Code of Canon Law states: “Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

There was an authentic interpretation on this canon (Latin is here: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_22091998_authentic-interp_lt.html ). The question was basically this: Does “abortion” in canon 1398 mean only the ejection of an immature fetus or does it also mean the killing of the fetus in any way, at whatever time, from the moment of conception? The answer was “no” to the first part and “yes” to the second. So, this is an expansive interpretation of what “abortion” means in this canon. The literal meaning of this statement seems rather clear and some would say that it includes the death of those conceived via IVF: canonlaw.info/2006/06/excommunication-for-deliberate-embryo.html.

However, at least some scholars think a properly strict reading of the law–which is necessary when dealing with penalties like this–makes it at least doubtful as to whether or not this law is meant to include the destruction of embryos who were never implanted. So, they’d say that the penalty does not apply even considering the authentic interpretation (the “Exegetical Commentary” on the Code of Canon Law has this perspective).

I’ve waffled back and forth on this question but right now I’d have to say that I think the penalty of excommunication *can *apply to those who willfully destroy these embryos. I say this because the Church always wants to protect the life of every person, from the moment of conception. The intent of the law in canon 1398 is to further this protection. Society has continued to find new ways of putting the unborn in danger and the Church has to “keep up.” The 1988 interpretation was an attempt to do that and I don’t know how much more broadly the canon could be interpreted: it already includes any method of killing the unborn at any time.

Dan

Yes. I wholly agree.

I believe the Church has done a good job of making its position known. But in good conscience I disagree with it, as do the overwhelming majority of Catholics.

Your entire post was excellent. The above paragraph was particularly poignant and undoubtedly true.

My belief is that your family is a truly blessing and a gift from God.

Michelelmd, I apologize. Got thrown off since u copied and pasted instead of hitting the quote button, so thought the story was attributed to yourself

Michelelmd, I apologize. Got thrown off since u copied and pasted instead of hitting the quote button, so thought the story was attributed to yourself

Sorry Michele, you’re taking the easy way out. If something is “gravely wrong”, it should not have happened. If it should not have happened, the results (good or bad) also should not have happened. Hence, the kids should not have happened. Regardless of whether I take responsibility for my sin, whether I agree that it is one or not.

Dealing with complex issues with a simple “I sinned, sorry” is juvenile, and it means you got confused when you started to think it through. The answer wasn’t easy, so you just default to “oops, well, I was blessed with you anyway”. The truth is the Church is so fixated on the embryos that don’t make it, it has no answers for those that do.

I didn’t use Jesus as an example of IVF, it was an example of conception outside of the marital act. God is not bound by the same rules, yet we are supposed to live in the image of God, who for all practical purposes shirked said marital act to do things in a Godly way. I do not have a problem with this, I just find it interesting.

Finally please tell me that if the marital act is always supposed to leave the possibility open to conceiving, and we know we aren’t able to have children this way, is it a sin for us to have intercourse then?

No problem. I was responding via my iPhone. The small type writer and screen makes it a little cumbersome. It’s my fault, I thought I had hit the quote but apparently I did it wrong. LOL!

This subject is so complex. So many of us are so poorly catechised. Many in the last generations have not learned the faith and this failure has led to many errors such as disobedience to Church doctrine. Thinking that we have the right to disagree with any part of Church teaching, not a particular person’s opinion but of actual Church Doctrine. I see so much rebellion. We are trying to justify our sins.

I pray that the whole world will bow down and confess, Father forgive me for I have sinned. When we admit we have sinned, we can ask to be forgiven.

How did we get so far from our roots. We are the Catholic Church. We are the Bride of Christ. We need to try harder. We need more John the Baptist types that proclaim the faith without apologies. Michael Voris, Tim Haines & Wilson Orihuela have my respect because they are screaming the truth and waking people up. Catholic Answers can give you lots of information but it’s up to us to apply what we learn and live it.

While “open to life” is the shorthand people use, the real teaching it that every sexual act within marriage must be ordered toward procreation. Those who are infertile or otherwise unable to conceive, but who are still capable of having relations in a manner ordered toward procreation are still acting morally when they engage in marital relations.

CCC 2373-2379 pretty much says it all. Most people won’t like it, but when did having a child become something that everyone has a right too. Children are a gift from God. If you are blessed with a child through the marital act, that’s God’s way of saying you are meant to be a parent. If not through the marital act, then you are playing God, disregarding his will, and committing mortal sin. He may have had a plan for you that didn’t include children, but that would have been very fulfilling, and you’ve (general you) have cast that aside.

However, the children should NEVER be made to feel inferior, just as children conceived by rape should never be held accountable for the sin of their father.

Adoption is fine for people who want to adopt kids. As you know there are people who want biological kids of their own and honestly, having biological kids is what is wanted. For people who want biological children but can only do so by In Vitro Fertilization (IVF), this choice must be there for them. Yes, the Vatican opposes IVF, but as this poster is not Catholic, this poster supports IVF. There are born again Christians (Protestants) who have told me that they support In Vitro Fertilization and they are also pro-life because they believe IVF is creating life.

I’ve seen several of your posts and while I certainly don’t want you to feel unwelcome, you do realize that this is a Catholic forum and that this subforum is specifically about Catholic morality, and that’s what this thread addresses, right?

Most Catholics are very well aware that everyone else thinks IVF is a-OK. Telling us that these people exist is not particularly convincing. :shrug:

Yes, understand that this is a Catholic Forum and wrote that the Vatican opposes IVF. But you know that there are Catholics who differ with the Vatican on this as there are Catholics who support IVF. There are Catholics who differ with the Vatican on the death penalty. What has been said is that Christians have told me that they support In Vitro Fertilization. Yes, Protestants and Catholics will have different views but both are Christian.

“The Vatican” is a term used commonly by the media (and by non-Catholics), but it is imprecise. There is a definitive source for all Catholic teaching - The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Catholic morality is not “democratic” and it does not change over time. Doctrines may be developed to address different situations, such as IVF which was unheard of until recently, but the teachings do not change. Many Catholics are ignorant and/or willfully disagree, but that doesn’t make them right just because there’s a lot of them.

I suggest you learn where and why the Catholic Church asserts its authority over these matters. This website is a great start. It doesn’t mean you’ll agree with the reasoning, but at least you’ll understand why faithful Catholics may find it disrespectful for a non-Catholic to come on a theology-based thread and tell us it’s no big deal to ignore Church teaching just because lots of people are doing it.

I thought you were Catholic. Do you think that you have the right to disagree with Church doctrine? Yes, confession is just that simple. You go in and say you’re sorry for your sins and mean it. The priest will give you a penance and absolve you. Very simple but it’s difficult to admit our sins and to be truly repentant.

I’m not going to tell anyone that any child is a mistake. I love children. But I wonder if your opinion would change if you learned that Veronica was really receiving messages from Jesus. I have read about the many miracles that occurred at Bayside. We will not know until the Final Judgment when all is revealed. In the meantime, The Church opposes IVF so that alone is enough for me to oppose IVF.

As far as the marital act always supposed to leave the possibility open to conceive. Yes, it should. If someone is too old, or barren or unable to conceive for whatever reason, this does NOT prohibit GOD from creating life. Read about Elizabeth, Sarah and the many examples in the bible of people who supposedly could not conceive. This did not stop God from blessing them with a child. God may bless some people differently, by an adopted or foster child, a nephew or niece, a godchild. Teachers have hundreds of children. You are talking to someone who not only had my children but all of the above experiences. I love each and every one of these and I feel blessed by them all.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.