Are we the mother of ALL?


#1

Perhaps I am grossly misinformed...I'm not a perfect Catholic, Historian, Theologian, just a simple dude with questions...

Did our church preserve the bible for over 1000 years with our traditions and practices?...

And then did Protestants break away?...claiming that it was the bible...not the traditions that were divine?...

And if this IS the case...wouldn't that make our mother your mother too?..

Based on the logic that if it wasn't for us preserving this bible, you wouldn't have it now to argue our practices with?...

And doesn't that mean you have a deep amount of faith in our practices and traditions also?...

DISCLAIMER: I may sound completely off..I'm just asking these questions off what I'm hearing as I truly start to fall in love with the history of my Mother, the Church..

Thanks peeps:)

Paz


#2

Dude, I wish I could answer your question, but I do not even understand it! It is completely disjointed. Are you asking them individually or as a whole? If you are asking them as a whole, you could take a class in Catholic history or even get a book and read up. Just make certain that what you read is approved by the Catholic church. So much of what is written about it, is not authored by anyone with authority, so you need to check your sources!


#3

I hope you don't expect too many arguments from us Lutherans :)

We disagree on a few key points. And if those were resolved, some of us would happy to be Catholic.


#4

[quote="benjohnson, post:3, topic:292331"]
I hope you don't expect too many arguments from us Lutherans :)

We disagree on a few key points. And if those were resolved, some of us would happy to be Catholic.

[/quote]

Ok cool:)...Whatre the issues if you don't mind me askin?


#5

[quote="ABEACHGIRL, post:2, topic:292331"]
Dude, I wish I could answer your question, but I do not even understand it! It is completely disjointed. Are you asking them individually or as a whole? If you are asking them as a whole, you could take a class in Catholic history or even get a book and read up. Just make certain that what you read is approved by the Catholic church. So much of what is written about it, is not authored by anyone with authority, so you need to check your sources!

[/quote]

Let me try and clarify...

If the Catholics preserved the bible...and it was our traditions that preserved the bible...then are we the rock of everyone's church as well?

Doesn't faith in the bible claiming it to be sola scriptura give even more faith in the traditions that preserved that bible?

Haha, your right, I'll add "legible writer" to that list of things I am not. Ha.

Paz


#6

[quote="Gorillaman, post:1, topic:292331"]
Perhaps I am grossly misinformed...I'm not a perfect Catholic, Historian, Theologian, just a simple dude with questions...

Did our church preserve the bible for over 1000 years with our traditions and practices?...

And then did Protestants break away?...claiming that it was the bible...not the traditions that were divine?...

And if this IS the case...wouldn't that make our mother your mother too?..

Based on the logic that if it wasn't for us preserving this bible, you wouldn't have it now to argue our practices with?...

And doesn't that mean you have a deep amount of faith in our practices and traditions also?...

DISCLAIMER: I may sound completely off..I'm just asking these questions off what I'm hearing as I truly start to fall in love with the history of my Mother, the Church..

Thanks peeps:)

Paz

[/quote]

Hi,Paz!

It is a fact that there was one and only one Christian church for the first 1000+ years. In 1054 the church was split into Eastern (Greek Orthodox) and Western (Latin) parts. In the 1500s the latter was further divided into what we now know as Roman Catholic and Protestant.

There is no question that in this shared history the scriptures were preserved and theology/doctrine developed. We have much in common, but I would not use the concept of "motherhood" to describe the relationship. It implies a hierarchy that I do not believe exists.


#7

[quote="Gorillaman, post:4, topic:292331"]
Ok cool:)...Whatre the issues if you don't mind me askin?

[/quote]

As far as dogma: Papal Infallibility / Supremacy of Peter, Apostolic Succession, and Purgatory/Limbo are the big ones that come off the top of my head.


#8

[quote="Gorillaman, post:1, topic:292331"]
Perhaps I am grossly misinformed...I'm not a perfect Catholic, Historian, Theologian, just a simple dude with questions...

Did our church preserve the bible for over 1000 years with our traditions and practices?...

And then did Protestants break away?...claiming that it was the bible...not the traditions that were divine?...

And if this IS the case...wouldn't that make our mother your mother too?..

Based on the logic that if it wasn't for us preserving this bible, you wouldn't have it now to argue our practices with?...

And doesn't that mean you have a deep amount of faith in our practices and traditions also?...

DISCLAIMER: I may sound completely off..I'm just asking these questions off what I'm hearing as I truly start to fall in love with the history of my Mother, the Church..

Thanks peeps:)

Paz

[/quote]

There is only One Mother Church. That's why she's called our Mother!
You are correct!

:cool:


#9

[quote="Gorillaman, post:1, topic:292331"]
Perhaps I am grossly misinformed...I'm not a perfect Catholic, Historian, Theologian, just a simple dude with questions...

Did our church preserve the bible for over 1000 years with our traditions and practices?...

And then did Protestants break away?...claiming that it was the bible...not the traditions that were divine?...

And if this IS the case...wouldn't that make our mother your mother too?..

Based on the logic that if it wasn't for us preserving this bible, you wouldn't have it now to argue our practices with?...

And doesn't that mean you have a deep amount of faith in our practices and traditions also?...

DISCLAIMER: I may sound completely off..I'm just asking these questions off what I'm hearing as I truly start to fall in love with the history of my Mother, the Church..

Thanks peeps:)

Paz

[/quote]

Yes and no. :o

I think this document will help you understand better:

Dominus Iesus

Whoever holds on the basics discussed in this document is indeed a child of the Church in one way or another, knowingly or unknowingly. However, some people might disagree with this assertion, I don't claim to be infallible the guy that wrote it is pretty awesome and as close as infallible as it gets :D.

Peace,

Jose


#10

[quote="BrianGular, post:6, topic:292331"]
Hi,Paz!

It is a fact that there was one and only one Christian church for the first 1000+ years. In 1054 the church was split into Eastern (Greek Orthodox) and Western (Latin) parts. In the 1500s the latter was further divided into what we now know as Roman Catholic and Protestant.

There is no question that in this shared history the scriptures were preserved and theology/doctrine developed. We have much in common, but I would not use the concept of "motherhood" to describe the relationship. It implies a hierarchy that I do not believe exists.

[/quote]

Mmmm..this seems wrong...this is the timeline as far as I know..

33 ad.. THE CHURCH is established by Jesus.

100 ad and soon after it is split off by orthodoxy...

Then 1000 years go by and Martin Luther with 99 thesis and his 66 books break off and Protestantism begins...

Again if I'm totally wrong I'd like to know...thanks:)


#11

[quote="Isaiah45_9, post:9, topic:292331"]
Yes and no. :o

I think this document will help you understand better:

Dominus Iesus

Whoever holds on the basics discussed in this document is indeed a child of the Church in one way or another, knowingly or unknowingly. However, some people might disagree with this assertion, I don't claim to be infallible the guy that wrote it is pretty awesome and as close as infallible as it gets :D.

Peace,

Jose

[/quote]

Thanks, this is very good...I'm gonna go watch the dark knight rises so I'll finish reading it when I get back...thank you! Haha:D


#12

[quote="benjohnson, post:7, topic:292331"]
As far as dogma: Papal Infallibility / Supremacy of Peter, Apostolic Succession, and Purgatory/Limbo are the big ones that come off the top of my head.

[/quote]

Yeah I can see hat you mean sometimes these terms kinda make me do this :shrug: ...haha, I hear this difference and many others come from a difference on where the AUTHORITY to interpret these things comes from yeah?

I've been trying to read other threads on this stuff but it's pretty complicated, I'm just trying to understand the roots. I really appreciate it..

Pace!:)


#13

=Gorillaman;9548956]Perhaps I am grossly misinformed...I'm not a perfect Catholic, Historian, Theologian, just a simple dude with questions...

Not perfect? :eek: Join the club. :D

Did our church preserve the bible for over 1000 years with our traditions and practices?...

Yes, indeed, along with Orthodoxy. And thank God for it, you and them.

And then did Protestants break away?...claiming that it was the bible...not the traditions that were divine?...

Well, we had our reasons. :o

And if this IS the case...wouldn't that make our mother your mother too?..

Indeed.

Based on the logic that if it wasn't for us preserving this bible, you wouldn't have it now to argue our practices with?...

And doesn't that mean you have a deep amount of faith in our practices and traditions also?...

Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it [the real presence], especially since we concede -- as we must -- that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and* that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them? *Therefore, faith, the Christian Church, Christ, and the Holy Spirit must also be found among them. . . . - Martin Luther

DISCLAIMER: I may sound completely off..I'm just asking these questions off what I'm hearing as I truly start to fall in love with the history of my Mother, the Church..

You could have also made it about the BVM, talking about "our Mother". ;)

Jon


#14

[quote="JonNC, post:13, topic:292331"]
Not perfect? :eek: Join the club. :D

Yes, indeed, along with Orthodoxy. And thank God for it, you and them.

Well, we had our reasons. :o

Indeed.

Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it [the real presence], especially since we concede -- as we must -- that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and* that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them? ***Therefore, faith, the Christian Church, Christ, and the Holy Spirit must also be found among them. . . . - Martin Luther

You could have also made it about the BVM, talking about "our Mother". ;)

Jon

[/quote]

Cool:). Hey what's BVM


#15

[quote="Gorillaman, post:14, topic:292331"]
Cool:). Hey what's BVM

[/quote]

Blessed Virgin Mary.


#16

[quote="Gorillaman, post:10, topic:292331"]
Mmmm..this seems wrong...this is the timeline as far as I know..

33 ad.. THE CHURCH is established by Jesus.

100 ad and soon after it is split off by orthodoxy...

Then 1000 years go by and Martin Luther with 99 thesis and his 66 books break off and Protestantism begins...

Again if I'm totally wrong I'd like to know...thanks:)

[/quote]

You're wrong and BrianGular is right. 1054 A.D. was the year the schism started with the Eastern Church. 1500's broght the reformation (500 years ago, not 1000 years ago).


#17

[quote="Gorillaman, post:1, topic:292331"]
Perhaps I am grossly misinformed...I'm not a perfect Catholic, Historian, Theologian, just a simple dude with questions...

Did our church preserve the bible for over 1000 years with our traditions and practices?...

[/quote]

Well, sort of: your church is a *development *of the church which preserved the Bible for over a thousand years, with a set of traditions and practices which differed somewhat from other developments of that same, original church. If you want more detail about that, talk to the Orthodox about who is closer to the original form of Christianity.

And then did Protestants break away?...claiming that it was the bible...not the traditions that were divine?...

Pretty much, although Protestant churches now are likewise *developments *from that original Protestant development.

Rather than it being simply a matter of you *and then *us, it has been them and then their children, from some of whom you are descended and from some of whom we are descended. We share a common ancestor, and are thus a kind of cousins. As to who most resembles that ancestor and thus has the best claim on the family silver, well, that is an argument which is not likely to die out any time soon...


#18

[quote="Gorillaman, post:10, topic:292331"]
Mmmm..this seems wrong...this is the timeline as far as I know..

33 ad.. THE CHURCH is established by Jesus.

100 ad and soon after it is split off by orthodoxy...

Then 1000 years go by and Martin Luther with 99 thesis and his 66 books break off and Protestantism begins...

Again if I'm totally wrong I'd like to know...thanks:)

[/quote]

Gorilla,

I kind of like to think that the Church was OT and NT...a continuum....Paul says that the Church is the mystery hidden for all ages and if that is true...then made visible and understandable in the NT....if the Church is the body of Christ and Christ is the head..then since Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow...the Church has always had a head.....but not always had a body...and if the mystery with a head and a body that was created then...the Church was made known and understood....:)

It follows that to be the Pillar and foundation of truth and the mystery by which the manifold wisdom of God is known that truth cannot change and that correlates with the mystery hidden for all ages.


#19

Seems since Jesus came as the Holy Spirit, before anything was written of the New testament, those members of His body didn't have the problems of knowing how to walk in the light, as many of His membesr do so today, and as can be read on this forum!

The Spirit had John write this.... 1 John 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which ye heard from the beginning. If that which ye heard from the beginning abide in you, ye also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise which he promised us, even the life eternal.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that would lead you astray.
27 And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

The anointing is the Holy Spirit which all believers are to receive. For it is the Spirit who leads, who teaches, who enables, to bring every believer into the images of Christ..

Sincerely in Christ
Barelohim.


#20

[quote="Barelohim, post:19, topic:292331"]
Seems since Jesus came as the Holy Spirit, before anything was written of the New testament, those members of His body didn't have the problems of knowing how to walk in the light, as many of His membesr do so today, and as can be read on this forum!

.

[/quote]

What does this mean? I mean,the bolded sounds like something contrary to the doctrine of the Trinity, unless I misunderstand...

Jon


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