Are women teachers different than women "pastors" or women speakers during Mass (even if a nun)?


#1

Hi,

Are women teachers different than women "pastors" or women speakers during Mass? I remember a nun speaking during the homily. I think she received or receives special permission to speak on the Gospels to "her" congregation, since she ran or runs the parish. Not sure if this was a permanent thing or not. It seems when someone speaks during the homily they are speaking on behalf of the church, so the women or lay person should speak at another time. It is often even lay people speak during the homily time slot. I think i heard the lay person or woman should speak at a different part of the Mass so to suggest not speaking on behalf of the church on the Gospels.

I was and still am somewhat confused after spending time in the protestant Churches about women being pastors and then also teaching at various theological colleges and then Catholic institutions and even being spiritual directors for men, ordained men too?

It started to make sense when finding out only Priests and Deacons and Bishops, all of which are men, were ordained to provide the sacraments and are called pastors (if head of a local Parish, as far as I am aware). Don't think "perform" the sacraments is the best word, right, since it isn't a performance?!?

But since deaconesses? were always to teach women (and children), then it is OK for them to teach and spiritually direct men, lay and ordained, right, as long as not in the Mass? This is still teaching men, but still not a pastor or in a pastoral role in the liturgy in front of the Mass, so maybe OK. I heard women can be pastoral associates now? too, but obviously, they are ordained to do any sacraments.

Any thoughts? Thank you for your help!


#2

The sacramental role and the teaching role are two seperate but complimentary aspects of christian service/ministery in the Catholic Church.

In the US and some other countries men ordained for ministery within the church are known as pastors from the latin shepherd. In the UK, Ireland and some other countries such men are generally just called priests or parist priests, curates etc. Sacramental ordination is required for men to become priests/pastors and so to act sacramentally, as it were, in the Holy sacrifice of the Mass, likewise only the ordained can preach a homily during Mass(it is worth pointing out here that Deacon,Priest and Bishop are all ordained ministeries).

Female pastoral assistants/associates etc are not ordained but can of course teach, catechise and the like. In general Catholics and Eastern Orthodox view Priests as having a Ritual/Sacrifical Role as conformed to the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ who was priest and victim, while most protestant groups would not accept this ritual/sacramental role of the priest rather they would see the role of priest/minister as more of a teacher/scholar one who breaks open the word, one who teaches and catechises.(it is of course very hard to generalise for 30000+ denominations so i am sure i have misrepresented some protestant groups.)


#3

This issue among Roman Catholics seems strange from the outside, too.

As a Confessional Lutheran, we understand the Priesthood as fundamentally rooted in the administration of Word and Sacrament. Word (the preaching office) and the Sacraments (Holy Baptistm, Holy Eucharist, and Holy Absolution, having particular emphasis,) are rightly administered only by those who are ordered to that service (ordained into Christ's Office) according to Christ's institution of the Office, His Word, and His Sacraments.

I think confessional (39 Article) Anglicans function under a very similar paradigm, and most Calvinists have great similarities there, too. That encompasses the vast majority of the world's Reformation Christians.

Also, the Holy Priesthood in the Eastern Orthodox communion(s) have a similar focus, primarily oriented toward the icon of Christ in the priest, particularly as the priest or bishop exercises the Office of the Keys through Word and Sacrament.

I would be curious, from a Roman perspective, what Catechism reference they might use, to substantiate this practice among them on non-ordained laity administering the Word in the Holy Mass? My guess is, that it is abberant, even to orthodox Roman doctrine and practice.

Blessings be to you.


#4

[quote="WorkerPriest, post:3, topic:307146"]
This issue among Roman Catholics seems strange from the outside, too.

As a Confessional Lutheran, we understand the Priesthood as fundamentally rooted in the administration of Word and Sacrament. Word (the preaching office) and the Sacraments (Holy Baptistm, Holy Eucharist, and Holy Absolution, having particular emphasis,) are rightly administered only by those who are ordered to that service (ordained into Christ's Office) according to Christ's institution of the Office, His Word, and His Sacraments.

I think confessional (39 Article) Anglicans function under a very similar paradigm, and most Calvinists have great similarities there, too. That encompasses the vast majority of the world's Reformation Christians.

Also, the Holy Priesthood in the Eastern Orthodox communion(s) have a similar focus, primarily oriented toward the icon of Christ in the priest, particularly as the priest or bishop exercises the Office of the Keys through Word and Sacrament.

I would be curious, from a Roman perspective, what Catechism reference they might use, to substantiate this practice among them on non-ordained laity administering the Word in the Holy Mass? My guess is, that it is abberant, even to orthodox Roman doctrine and practice.

Blessings be to you.

[/quote]

A non-ordained person should never proclaim the Gospel or give the homily at a Catholic Mass or Divine Liturgy. That is reserved to a priest or deacon. And, even a deacon needs a reason to give the homily (proclaiming the Gospel is his proper function if he is present at Mass).

What a non-ordained person can do is to speak after the homily or before the final blessing, if their is a topic of importance. The priest should still give a brief homily, i.e. the talk is not to replace the homily (although this is sometimes abused).

God Bless


#5

[quote="GodHeals, post:1, topic:307146"]
Are women teachers different than women "pastors" or women speakers during Mass? I remember a nun speaking during the homily. I think she received or receives special permission to speak on the Gospels to "her" congregation, since she ran or runs the parish. Not sure if this was a permanent thing or not. It seems when someone speaks during the homily they are speaking on behalf of the church, so the women or lay person should speak at another time. It is often even lay people speak during the homily time slot. I think i heard the lay person or woman should speak at a different part of the Mass so to suggest not speaking on behalf of the church on the Gospels.

[/quote]

I believe there are circumstances -- special ones, to be sure -- in which it is permissible for the laity to speak, but this is not to take the place of the homily.

I was and still am somewhat confused after spending time in the protestant Churches about women being pastors and then also teaching at various theological colleges and then Catholic institutions and even being spiritual directors for men, ordained men too?

Women can be spiritual directors. Women can also teach at Catholic institutions.


#6

=GodHeals;10092546]Hi,

Are women teachers different than women "pastors" or women speakers during Mass? I remember a nun speaking during the homily. I think she received or receives special permission to speak on the Gospels to "her" congregation, since she ran or runs the parish. Not sure if this was a permanent thing or not. It seems when someone speaks during the homily they are speaking on behalf of the church, so the women or lay person should speak at another time. It is often even lay people speak during the homily time slot. I think i heard the lay person or woman should speak at a different part of the Mass so to suggest not speaking on behalf of the church on the Gospels.

I was and still am somewhat confused after spending time in the protestant Churches about women being pastors and then also teaching at various theological colleges and then Catholic institutions and even being spiritual directors for men, ordained men too?

It started to make sense when finding out only Priests and Deacons and Bishops, all of which are men, were ordained to provide the sacraments and are called pastors (if head of a local Parish, as far as I am aware). Don't think "perform" the sacraments is the best word, right, since it isn't a performance?!?

But since deaconesses? were always to teach women (and children), then it is OK for them to teach and spiritually direct men, lay and ordained, right, as long as not in the Mass? This is still teaching men, but still not a pastor or in a pastoral role in the liturgy in front of the Mass, so maybe OK. I heard women can be pastoral associates now? too, but obviously, they are ordained to do any sacraments.

Any thoughts? Thank you for your help!

My GUESS is that she was not granted the authority to do so. IF what she did suplanted a homily with some other information: maybe? But NOT ever-granted permission to Give a homily which both GRIM and Canon Law mandate can be done ONLY by a Bishop, Priest or Deacon: All make gender.

You say "she runs the parish":shrug: What exactly does this mean?

"Pastorial associates" are NOT one of the "minor orders" and can Do only Baptisms which any lay personj can also do in some circumstances. There could be an exception granted to witness a marriage [permission from the Bishop required] as it is the couple themselves who cause the Sacrament od Mrriage to take place and the "church" acts only as a witness. Even then NO homily or sermon would be permitted.

The Bishop must specify what he permits; and what he permits MUST abide MAgisterium Teaching on the matter. Amen

Outside of Mass Women can teach, so long as they adhere to what the Pope and Magisterium approve of in what they teach.


#7

It is prohibited for someone other than a bishop, priest or deacon to give a homily at Mass or for someone to give a talk in place of a homily on a Sunday or Holy day Mass. Therefore since women are not in these positions, they should not be giving homilies. There are parishes that are lead by nuns because of lack of priests in the area. But a Mass is always need to be lead by a priest. Now, if the priest is not available to do a Mass and there are enough pre-consecrated hosts, there can be a communion service but that is not a Mass.
Read Jimmy Atkins book "Mass revision" for more info over this an other liturgical issues.


#8

The OP's post is confusing, but there are some things we can state about what lay people (men and women) can and cannot do during MASS and at a parish outside of Mass. It is important to remember that if a lay MAN can do a certain task, in most cases a lay woman is fine too. The distinction is usually around who is ordained and who isn't.

  1. Only bishops, priests, and deacons (ordained men) can give the homily. Non-ordained men - even religious - should not be giving homilies either.

  2. Only a priest or bishop can lead a MASS (confect the Eucharist).

  3. Non-ordained people - religious and lay / men and women - can be "parish administrators", that is run the programs, schedule events, pay the bills, lead RCIA and CCD, etc. There are obviously qualifications for this but being ordained doesn't have to be one of them.

  4. Non-ordained people and deacons can lead a "Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest" (aka communion service) when necessary. Someone can read a homily or meditation as part of that service. Obviously if there is a priest around, there should be an actual Mass.

  5. Non-ordained people - religious and lay / men and women (and deacons) can be spiritual directors and teachers in universities and seminaries. Yes, even for priests. Spiritual Direction and the Sacrament of Penance are two different things.

  6. Non-ordained people can (and should) run Catholic organizations and programs like crises pregnancy centers, soup kitchens, etc. As part of their work they may be asked to speak at a parish during Mass. They can speak either directly after the homily or just before dismissal.


#9

[quote="Mrs_Sally, post:8, topic:307146"]
The OP's post is confusing, but there are some things we can state about what lay people (men and women) can and cannot do during MASS and at a parish outside of Mass. It is important to remember that if a lay MAN can do a certain task, in most cases a lay woman is fine too. The distinction is usually around who is ordained and who isn't.

  1. Only bishops, priests, and deacons (ordained men) can give the homily. Non-ordained men - even religious - should not be giving homilies either.

  2. Only a priest or bishop can lead a MASS (confect the Eucharist).

  3. Non-ordained people - religious and lay / men and women - can be "parish administrators", that is run the programs, schedule events, pay the bills, lead RCIA and CCD, etc. There are obviously qualifications for this but being ordained doesn't have to be one of them.

  4. Non-ordained people and deacons can lead a "Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest" (aka communion service) when necessary. Someone can read a homily or meditation as part of that service. Obviously if there is a priest around, there should be an actual Mass.

  5. Non-ordained people - religious and lay / men and women (and deacons) can be spiritual directors and teachers in universities and seminaries. Yes, even for priests. Spiritual Direction and the Sacrament of Penance are two different things.

  6. Non-ordained people can (and should) run Catholic organizations and programs like crises pregnancy centers, soup kitchens, etc. As part of their work they may be asked to speak at a parish during Mass. They can speak either directly after the homily or just before dismissal.

[/quote]

well put and said and thanks! :)


#10

More appropriate for L & S Forum

CLOSED


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