Are you excited about the new translation of the Liturgy of the Hours?


#21

[quote="ProVobis, post:20, topic:334118"]
Seems like if you do it for the Anglophones, you should do it in the hundreds of other vernaculars the Church allows. Just sayin.

[/quote]

That would be up to the respective churches to come up with the music for it.


#22

This is very exciting!

[quote="EphelDuath, post:1, topic:334118"]
I don't know who has been following the BCDW newsletter, but in a few years we will have a new English translation of the Liturgy of the Hours.

Based on what info has been released so far, it's going to be better in almost every way possible:

1) the Grail Psalms will be replaced with the Revised Grail Psalms (in accordance with Liturgiam authenticam), which are widely lauded as being a huge improvement;
2) for Americans, the Biblical readings will be updated from the original New American Bible to the NAB Revised Edition (not a fan of either at all, really, but the latter is a slight improvement);

[/quote]

These are things I had guessed on my own that would happen, so no real surprise there.

[quote="EphelDuath, post:1, topic:334118"]
3) the Antiphons will be re-translated, which will also include the three-year cycle of canticle Antiphons that are in the 1985 Latin edition of the LotH;

[/quote]

Do you mean the Gospel Canticle antiphons?

[quote="EphelDuath, post:1, topic:334118"]
4) the Intercessions will be re-translated;

[/quote]

Good, they needed it. Preferably, they will also correct the confusion that exist in some where the Response (text in italics) is optional every time or required (as it seems to be in the Common of Apostles in Morning Prayer)

[quote="EphelDuath, post:1, topic:334118"]
5) the Collects will be updated to conform to the new Roman Missal;

[/quote]

Well, they mine as well, seeing as how they've already done that work. :p

I assume they will redo the other Collects too (basically everything in the 4-Wear Psalter for Ordinary Time)?

[quote="EphelDuath, post:1, topic:334118"]
6) the generic interchangeable hymns and religious poetry will be eliminated in favor of the hymns in the Latin being translated and becoming the mandatory song for the Hour;

[/quote]

That's not good enough!

I will not be satisfied until every physical copy of Sion Sing has been physically torched. :D

Being serious now, this is excellent. And again, most of the work has already been completed anyways, as the Mundelein Psalter has all the hymns translated for Morning and Evening and Night Prayer (I have only been using these ones for Morning and Evening for the Summer. Plus, they're nearly all in Long Metre or 11.11.11.5, and so you can sing them without necessarily learning the "proper" tunes and just substituting another LM/11.11.11.5 one).

So all they really need to do is translate the hymns for Daytime Prayer and the Office of Reading (the OoR hymns are generally not that bad compared with some of the Morning Prayer ones).

[quote="EphelDuath, post:1, topic:334118"]
7) the Calendar will be updated to account for the beatifications and canonizations that have happened since the original edition was published, since currently you need to use a supplement to get the necessary propers.

[/quote]

I'm hoping that along with this that we in Canada will get our own Proper supplement too, since we have several Saints now that need them.

[quote="EphelDuath, post:1, topic:334118"]
The Responsories will stay the same.

[/quote]

That's surprising actually. A lot of them are quite, err, bland to tell the truth.

[quote="EphelDuath, post:1, topic:334118"]
No word on the Ordinary (the Te Deum has to be updated because it still says "God of power and might" rather than "God of Hosts", so I assume it will undergo some updates), Psalm-prayers (I imagine they will be relegated to an appendix as they are in the Latin), General Instruction or non-Biblical readings, yet.

[/quote]

I'm hoping they update the Benedictus and Magnificat. I'm not a fan of the translations they used, which are, as usual, dumbed down. From what I've heard, The Grail has their own translation of them, so maybe those ones will be substituted.

I heard a little background on the Psalm-Prayers from a priest this past year actually. Apparently the English ones were translated from Latin ones, and the Latin ones were later not approved. Personally, I hope they're eliminated all together.

No surprise on no change to non-Biblical readings. They seem to be using standard English translations of them.

One other wish I have is that they improve the presentation of the Hours during the Easter Octave. Let's be honest, the current Breviary is a mess for that week. Morning prayer alone requires near-constant flipping between at least 3 different sections.

This is getting more nit-pickey, but I want them to switch up the volumes. The switch from Volume 3 to 4 always seems to happen during August long-weekend (the 1st Monday in August is a Civic Holiday for much of Canada), which means many of us are travelling.

[quote="CompSciGuy, post:14, topic:334118"]
I am wondering if there have been produced guides for singing the liturgy of the hours in English as the monks do in Latin.

[/quote]

The Mundelein Psalter uses the current English translation and has annotations for chanting Morning, Evening, and Night Prayer. It also has the translated Latin hymns instead of the ones ICEL included. It's pretty easy to use actually. They also have online resources to help with the Psalm tones and hymns and stuff.


#23

[quote="curlycool89, post:22, topic:334118"]

I'm hoping that along with this that we in Canada will get our own Proper supplement too, since we have several Saints now that need them.

[/quote]

I'm surprised you don't have that in the English LOTH. We've had a "National Propers" section in the French LOTH since the start, and it includes Canadian Propers. Of course we need supplements now because there are new saints since then, but we've always had a section for Canadian propers.


#24

curlycool89: I don't think ICEL is just going to take the hymns from Mundelein, for copyright and administrative reasons. But who knows :shrug:

Also, in the 1985 edition of the Latin, there's a three-year cycle for the antiphons for the Benedictus/Magnificat. That is what ICEL is going to translate.


#25

[quote="EphelDuath, post:24, topic:334118"]
curlycool89: I don't think ICEL is just going to take the hymns from Mundelein, for copyright and administrative reasons. But who knows :shrug:

Also, in the 1985 edition of the Latin, there's a three-year cycle for the antiphons for the Benedictus/Magnificat. That is what ICEL is going to translate.

[/quote]

Wow I'm beginning to understand now why so many folks here have issues with the LOTH. The French LOTH that I use (published in 1980) has the three year cycle of gospel canticle antiphons. I have a copy of Christian Prayer for reference, but I don't use it. Since you said this I went and checked and just noticed that there's only one antiphon for Sundays whereas in my French LOTH that I do use, there's one each for years A, B and C.

Also for Francophones we now have the excellent Les Heures Grégoriennes, a Latin-French antiphonary for day hours (Lauds, mid-day, Vespers and Compline with options for Terce, Sext and None). It has Latin hymns from Liber Hymnarius, noted for Gregorian chant with the French translation alongside, Latin antiphons also noted for Gregorian chant, and Latin psalms from the Neo-Vulgate with the French official liturgical translation alongside. Along with all the Latin psalm tones, it suggests French psalm tones to accompany the Latin antiphon. All the Latin responsories are also there. Truly impressive, and it's well laid out for ease of use and minimal page flipping (but beware the volumes are BIG and HEAVY; I had to modify my prie-dieu to accomodate them :) ). All French translations are, where they exist, official liturgical versions so one can mix or alternate between French and Latin.

At the moment though I am using our abbey's monastic schema (schema B, 150 psalms per week) because the monks are having a rough time at the moment I want to add my prayers to theirs. Combination of house books and the 2005-2006 Antiphonale Monasticum, which means lots of not only page, but book flipping especially on feasts (today is the feast of St. Anne in Canada) :p


#26

[quote="Tarpeian_Rock, post:4, topic:334118"]
I wasn't a user of the LOTH in 1975 when the current edition came out. Is there a history of "grandfathering" the in-use edition? Just thinking of the cost of a new 4-volume set for each of the thousands of priests and deacons in the US.

[/quote]

This is why I am not so excited. The original set was quite expensive for me. Now what!


#27

[quote="OraLabora, post:25, topic:334118"]
Wow I'm beginning to understand now why so many folks here have issues with the LOTH. The French LOTH that I use (published in 1980) has the three year cycle of gospel canticle antiphons. I have a copy of Christian Prayer for reference, but I don't use it. Since you said this I went and checked and just noticed that there's only one antiphon for Sundays whereas in my French LOTH that I do use, there's one each for years A, B and C.

[/quote]

:confused:

The English doesn't have the three-year cycle because it hasn't been updated since 1975 and the three-year cycle appears in the Latin editio altera of 1985. So how does your 1980 French version already have them?

[quote="Ohana, post:26, topic:334118"]
This is why I am not so excited. The original set was quite expensive for me. Now what!

[/quote]

We can be reasonably sure that the new edition will be cheaper. If not, there will almost certainly be a digital version for <$10.


#28

[quote="EphelDuath, post:1, topic:334118"]
I don't know who has been following the BCDW newsletter, but in a few years we will have a new English translation of the Liturgy of the Hours.

Based on what info has been released so far, it's going to be better in almost every way possible:

1) the Grail Psalms will be replaced with the Revised Grail Psalms (in accordance with Liturgiam authenticam), which are widely lauded as being a huge improvement;
2) for Americans, the Biblical readings will be updated from the original New American Bible to the NAB Revised Edition (not a fan of either at all, really, but the latter is a slight improvement);
3) the Antiphons will be re-translated, which will also include the three-year cycle of canticle Antiphons that are in the 1985 Latin edition of the LotH;
4) the Intercessions will be re-translated;
5) the Collects will be updated to conform to the new Roman Missal;
6) the generic interchangeable hymns and religious poetry will be eliminated in favor of the hymns in the Latin being translated and becoming the mandatory song for the Hour;
7) the Calendar will be updated to account for the beatifications and canonizations that have happened since the original edition was published, since currently you need to use a supplement to get the necessary propers.

The Responsories will stay the same. No word on the Ordinary (the Te Deum has to be updated because it still says "God of power and might" rather than "God of Hosts", so I assume it will undergo some updates), Psalm-prayers (I imagine they will be relegated to an appendix as they are in the Latin), General Instruction or non-Biblical readings, yet.

No word on it yet, but I am also hopeful that Catholic Book Publishing Corporation will not hold a monopoly on publishing the English, since the artwork that appears in the current LotH is "modernist" (some may like that, but I would at least prefer the ability to pick from many publishers).

Are you excited? :D

[/quote]

Yes. I am looking forward to it.

To your points:

  1. On the one hand, I like the idea of a better translation of the psalms. On the other hand, I'm getting tired of these constant (every few years it seems) changes to the psalms. I would like to see consistency with the psalms in the office and the Mass, but then that means a new lectionary.

  2. Same goes for the readings as the psalms.

  3. Personally, I don't like the 3-year cycle of antiphons. The office is confusing enough as it is (let's face it). I would rather see things simplified instead.

  4. Good! Those intercessions (at least in English) need a lot of improvement!!!!

5 Yes! Those ICEL interpretations should be committed to oblivion. Away with them!

  1. This I like, but I don't see it as being as significant as the other changes. I sometimes think of this as I do an opening hymn at Mass. I don't mind (and sometimes like) the flexibility.

  2. This one's a given. Many of these new saints are very significant for us as Americans; and of course, we have John XXIII and JP II "coming soon to a calendar near you." This needs to be done more than just every 30 years or so.

As far as the books themselves go, I like the Catholic Book Publishing books (at least, overall) but I would likewise prefer to see more options. I'll continue that in the next post for the sake of space...


#29

Paulist Press prints a 1-volume version which in many ways I like (although I haven't used it in a few years just by coincidence).

The advantage to that one (as I recall) is that the Canticles of Mary and Zechariah are actually printed within the Psalter section of the book. This is a huge advantage, because one need not go from the psalms back to the ordinary and then back to the psalms again. A simple thing like that makes the book much easier to use.

I cannot stand the way Catholic Book Pub. uses ellipses in the responsory. I mean, really, I want to say to the publisher: "Just print the entire sentence already, what's wrong with you?"

I would like the office to be more of a prayer and less of an exercise in turning pages. Yes, I know "how it works" but still, there are ways to print the book that would make it less confusing. Unfortunately, the way they're printed today the page turning is a huge distraction (at least to me).


#30

I have never heard a definitive answer as to whether a diocesan priest or deacon in the USA can fulfill his obligation by praying the British Divine Office. Does anyone know the answer?


#31

[quote="EphelDuath, post:27, topic:334118"]
:confused:

The English doesn't have the three-year cycle because it hasn't been updated since 1975 and the three-year cycle appears in the Latin editio altera of 1985. So how does your 1980 French version already have them?

[/quote]

No idea but it definitely has the 3-year cycle.

I suspect from monastic sources: my 1980 Monastic breviary has them as well, and I have a book published by Solesmes in 1984 that sets out a list of correspondence between the antiphons the pre-Vatican II monastic breviary, and the 3-year cycle.

The difference between the monastic and Roman, is that the monastic has 6 antiphons per Sunday: 1 each for each of the 3 years, for the Benedictus and Magnificat. It also specifies Magnificat antiphons for 1st Vespers of Sundays on either a 1 or 2 year cycle depending on which lectionary is used for Vigils.

Most likely the new antiphons weren't published before 1985, but had been compiled well before then. Some may have changed since 1980. I have an earlier French equivalent to Christian Prayer (early version of "Prière du temps présent") that doesn't have them. It was published in 1971; a more recent edition (approved 1980 but reprinted 1993) has them.

In any event the current French LOTH definitely has the 3-year cycle of antiphons since its publication in 1980. Go figure, Rome works in mysterious ways... :shrug:

[quote="Cavaille-Coll, post:30, topic:334118"]
I hope the "Psalm-prayers" will be removed. I skip them, because some are so poorly written (i.e. "You condemned the rich, Lord Jesus..." which He certainly did not).

[/quote]

Another thing we don't have in the French LOTH is the psalm-prayers. Although, my French monastic LOTH does have them... go figure.

They are optional in any case. Perhaps removing them could condense the LOTH to 3 volumes :p

That will never happen in French though (our LOTH is 4 volumes even without the psalm-prayers) because we're more verbose in French, we need more words and longer words to say the same thing as in English.


#32

[quote="Cavaille-Coll, post:30, topic:334118"]
I hope the "Psalm-prayers" will be removed. I skip them, because some are so poorly written (i.e. "You condemned the rich, Lord Jesus..." which He certainly did not).

I have never heard a definitive answer as to whether a diocesan priest or deacon in the USA can fulfill his obligation by praying the British (Roman Catholic) Divine Office. Does anyone know the answer?

[/quote]

It's pretty well established as a given that a secular cleric can use any legitimate, approved version of the Office for private use.


#33

[quote="OraLabora, post:23, topic:334118"]
I'm surprised you don't have that in the English LOTH. We've had a "National Propers" section in the French LOTH since the start, and it includes Canadian Propers.

[/quote]

Really?! All we have in English for a Supplement is the same ones that the Americans have.

For a really good example: Today, the Feast of St. Joachim and Anne in Canada. Which you wouldn't know unless you have a copy of the Ordo.

[quote="EphelDuath, post:24, topic:334118"]
curlycool89: I don't think ICEL is just going to take the hymns from Mundelein, for copyright and administrative reasons. But who knows :shrug:

[/quote]

Actually, it seems that most of them were translated by the Benedictines of Saint Cecilia’s Abbey, Ryde, UK (according to the copyright notice). They're already being included most days in iBreviary. I can say pretty whole-heartedly that they're much better than what's in the current LOTH (especially Tuesday Morning Prayer Weeks I&III...)

I guess what I meant to say is that someone has translated most of them already. So long as ICEL doesn't go and butcher them now (ex: gender neutrality).

[quote="EphelDuath, post:24, topic:334118"]
Also, in the 1985 edition of the Latin, there's a three-year cycle for the antiphons for the Benedictus/Magnificat. That is what ICEL is going to translate.

[/quote]

Ok, that's what I thought you meant.

Right now for Sunday, they seem to have 1 for each year. EPI has Year A, MP has Year B, and EPII has Year C it seems.


#34

[quote="FrDavid96, post:32, topic:334118"]
It's pretty well established as a given that a secular cleric can use any legitimate, approved version of the Office for private use.

[/quote]

It is my understanding (from reading these forums) that this is true for private use, as you said, but if one wants to pray the liturgical Prayer of the Church with the Church, if the local Bishops Conference approved one English version and not the other, then we would only be permitted to use the locally approved version. In the United States that would be the Liturgy of the Hours and not the U.K. Divine Office.

I have also read on these forums that if the local bishops have not approved nor disapproved any English version (as is apparently the case here in Japan), then we are free to use any legitimate approved version.

If my understanding is incorrect, I would welcome any correction.


#35

[quote="Russ_of_Tokyo, post:34, topic:334118"]
It is my understanding (from reading these forums) that this is true for private use, as you said, but if one wants to pray the liturgical Prayer of the Church with the Church, if the local Bishops Conference approved one English version and not the other, then we would only be permitted to use the locally approved version. In the United States that would be the Liturgy of the Hours and not the U.K. Divine Office.

I have also read on these forums that if the local bishops have not approved nor disapproved any English version (as is apparently the case here in Japan), then we are free to use any legitimate approved version.

If my understanding is incorrect, I would welcome any correction.

[/quote]

In public prayer the community is obligated to use the version of the office which is official for them. So you are correct. When it's prayed in public, only the version approved for that particular country can be used. *

In my (diocesan) parish, when we pray the office as a public prayer, we must use the approved version (without any changes) and follow the calendar of the diocese.

If I visit a monastery, the monks would use their version (assuming they have approved variations), and follow their calendar. I would be permitted to join with them, even though the details of the prayer might be different from what I would do in the parish.

Let's say that a group of priests from the UK visits the US. They could use their version, and I could join with them...however I could not use their book in a community celebration of the hours in my US parish.

You're asking about Japan (just to refresh everyone else's memory). In private, any person (lay or cleric) who wants to use an English-language book, either the US or the UK or any other, may do so. Again, you're correct. However, if you have an English-speaking parish, it would be up to the local bishop to approve the parish to use a particular translation when the office is prayed as a community.

In private prayer, any person may use any approved version of the Office. It doesn't matter where.

  • Here in the US, we have a great number of what we call "ethnic parishes." Pardon me if you already know this (for all I know, you might have been born and raised in the US), but others might not know it. The local bishops can give approval for these parishes to use the liturgical books of their native language---books that have already been approved by the bishops of those countries (not just someone's private translations). That means that a Polish-speaking parish can use the books approved by the bishops of Poland, even though they're not actually in Poland.

Does that address what you were asking?


#36

[quote="curlycool89, post:33, topic:334118"]

For a really good example: Today, the Feast of St. Joachim and Anne in Canada. Which you wouldn't know unless you have a copy of the Ordo.

[/quote]

Actually it's the memorial of St. Joachim and St Anne in the rest of the world. In Canada it is the feast of St. Anne (the collect is different). It's in the "Propre du Canada" section. Each volume has that section, and the same for Belgium & Luxembourg, France, North Africa...

Of course there are new saints now, my edition is 1980... but Les Heures Grégoriennes has them for the most part, at least if not as saints, as blessed.


#37

[quote="FrDavid96, post:35, topic:334118"]
In public prayer the community is obligated to use the version of the office which is official for them. So you are correct. When it's prayed in public, only the version approved for that particular country can be used. *

In my (diocesan) parish, when we pray the office as a public prayer, we must use the approved version (without any changes) and follow the calendar of the diocese.

If I visit a monastery, the monks would use their version (assuming they have approved variations), and follow their calendar. I would be permitted to join with them, even though the details of the prayer might be different from what I would do in the parish.

Let's say that a group of priests from the UK visits the US. They could use their version, and I could join with them...however I could not use their book in a community celebration of the hours in my US parish.

You're asking about Japan (just to refresh everyone else's memory). In private, any person (lay or cleric) who wants to use an English-language book, either the US or the UK or any other, may do so. Again, you're correct. However, if you have an English-speaking parish, it would be up to the local bishop to approve the parish to use a particular translation when the office is prayed as a community.

In private prayer, any person may use any approved version of the Office. It doesn't matter where.

  • Here in the US, we have a great number of what we call "ethnic parishes." Pardon me if you already know this (for all I know, you might have been born and raised in the US), but others might not know it. The local bishops can give approval for these parishes to use the liturgical books of their native language---books that have already been approved by the bishops of those countries (not just someone's private translations). That means that a Polish-speaking parish can use the books approved by the bishops of Poland, even though they're not actually in Poland.

Does that address what you were asking?

[/quote]

This is great! Thanks for a very comprehensive answer! I'll paste this into a document keep it for reference. Yes, it hits the nail on the head (and yes, I was raised in the U.S.). At the risk of hogging the forums, since I've posted a similar question elsewhere, I wonder where the Customary of Our Lady Walsingham (the prayer book for the Ordinariate in Britain) fits into all this? A former Anglican is dying to know. But I suspect you've already answered the question...


#38

[quote="Russ_of_Tokyo, post:37, topic:334118"]
This is great! Thanks for a very comprehensive answer! I'll paste this into a document keep it for reference. Yes, it hits the nail on the head (and yes, I was raised in the U.S.). At the risk of hogging the forums, since I've posted a similar question elsewhere, I wonder where the Customary of Our Lady Walsingham (the prayer book for the Ordinariate in Britain) fits into all this? A former Anglican is dying to know. But I suspect you've already answered the question...

[/quote]

I suppose your "former Anglican" friend is not a priest (otherwise he wouldn't be asking). He can use their books to pray the Office anytime he wants. The books have been approved by competent authority in the Church, so he, or anyone else, can use them privately at any time for any reason.

On the other hand, a pastor within the Ordinariate who has scheduled Morning/Evening prayer as part of the liturgical life of the parish is required to use only the books approved for use in the Ordinariate.*

NB I haven't actually seen the Customary.

Here's a link to the Ordinariate's webpage on prayer
ordinariate.org.uk/liturgy-anglican-use

When it comes to private prayer by laypersons, any approved versions may be used.

The only time a particular version (such as a certain language or a version approved for a religious order) becomes an issue is when that book is used as the public liturgy of the Church. Those in Consecrated Life are obligated to follow their own rules--and whatever those might be, the members certainly know them.

Having said that though, I think we've strayed off-topic here. I would suggest that anyone who wants to discuss the issue of what version a person may use should begin a new thread.


  • that always includes the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, and sometimes the Extraordinary Form.

#39

[quote="OraLabora, post:36, topic:334118"]
Actually it's the memorial of St. Joachim and St Anne in the rest of the world. In Canada it is the feast of St. Anne (the collect is different). It's in the "Propre du Canada" section. Each volume has that section, and the same for Belgium & Luxembourg, France, North Africa...

[/quote]

Really, I didn't know that. (and like I said before, we don't have a Propers of Canada section for English)

In English Canada, we do the Feast of St. Joachim and St. Anne (here's the Calendar I'm following), and the Collect is the same as the universal one (so far as I remember hearing yesterday, I can double check the Roman Missal).

I know we celebrate it as a Feast in English Canada because of the French devotion to St. Anne, but I didn't realize that the French only celebrated St. Anne yesterday.


#40

[quote="curlycool89, post:39, topic:334118"]
Really, I didn't know that. (and like I said before, we don't have a Propers of Canada section for English)

In English Canada, we do the Feast of St. Joachim and St. Anne (here's the Calendar I'm following), and the Collect is the same as the universal one (so far as I remember hearing yesterday, I can double check the Roman Missal).

I know we celebrate it as a Feast in English Canada because of the French devotion to St. Anne, but I didn't realize that the French only celebrated St. Anne yesterday.

[/quote]

It might be different in English Canada. For us it was definitely St Anne only. The collect, needless to say, only mentions St Anne.

The monastic breviary treats the memorial of St Joachim and St. Anne as a major memorial, which means for Lauds and Vespers there are proper antiphons and the festive psalms are used (but Vigils is like a memorial, no Te Deum and only 2 nocturnes instead of 3 like a feast)


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