Argument for Universalism


#1

A common argument against Universalism (the idea that all will eventually be saved) is that God doesn’t reject us – rather, we reject God, and God cannot override our freedom to reject him.

But ponder this quote from If Grace is True:

**In my obsession with defending human freedom, I forgot a far more important truth: God is free…I believed in God’s power to do anything, except that which God desired most – to redeem the world.

I defended our freedom to reject God but denied God’s freedom to reject our rejection.

Most of us reluctantly acknowledge God’s freedom to love those we’ve rejected. What we find objectionable is the suggestion God loves even those who’ve rejected him.
**


#2

[quote=Ahimsa]A common argument against Universalism (the idea that all will eventually be saved) is that God doesn’t reject us – rather, we reject God, and God cannot override our freedom to reject him.

But ponder this quote from If Grace is True:

In my obsession with defending human freedom, I forgot a far more important truth: God is free…I believed in God’s power to do anything, except that which God desired most – to redeem the world.

I defended our freedom to reject God but denied God’s freedom to reject our rejection.

Most of us reluctantly acknowledge God’s freedom to love those we’ve rejected. What we find objectionable is the suggestion God loves even those who’ve rejected him.

[/quote]

That would be against Gods love for us. God gave us free will and allows us to make our own decision.

The question I have is, is it possible that God will give all people grace in the end and they will all accept him out of there own free will? We can never say if a specific person is in hell. Is it possible that all eventually use there free will to accept God? In a sense this is universalism, but it allows that hell is a possibility.


#3

God is of course free to reject our rejection, but He doesn’t. He let’s our rejection stand as a testament of our free will. What He DOESN’T do is stop showering us with graces in order to bring us back, until we’ve made the final decision to cut ourselves off from Him.


#4

To say that everyone is saved, regardless of their rejection or acceptance of God is to say there is no such thing as sin. For if there is no loss due to sin, sin itself cannot have any meaning.

Clearly, there is such a thing as sin. Therefore those who choose sin and who reject God will not be saved.


#5

I know that Von Balthasar wrote about everyone being given Grace to enter Heaven and that maybe there was no one in Hell, but I wonder also if this contradicts Christ’s statement that "many will say Lord, Lord, and I will say ‘Go from me, I knew you not’ "…

Just something I"ve often wondered about :slight_smile:

Gracie :slight_smile:


#6

[quote=Gracie2004]I know that Von Balthasar wrote about everyone being given Grace to enter Heaven and that maybe there was no one in Hell, but I wonder also if this contradicts Christ’s statement that "many will say Lord, Lord, and I will say ‘Go from me, I knew you not’ "…

Just something I"ve often wondered about :slight_smile:

Gracie :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I have wondered about this too. Could it be that we all eventually choose God?


#7

[quote=Gracie2004]I know that Von Balthasar wrote about everyone being given Grace to enter Heaven and that maybe there was no one in Hell, but I wonder also if this contradicts Christ’s statement that "many will say Lord, Lord, and I will say ‘Go from me, I knew you not’ "…

Just something I"ve often wondered about :slight_smile:

Gracie :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I would say that it is possible that everyone is in heaven, but not probable, especially if you believe in various apparitions and private revalations (although, of course, one is not required to).


#8

What does the evidence of our own experience tell us?

We have seen in our times some of the most horrific crimes, committed by some of the most evil men – Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and literally thousands of others – who died unrepentant.


#9

My challenge to the above is that we do not know what happens at the moment of death. (Death is that “undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveler returns.” -Hamlet, the famous “To be or not to be” speech).

So, it is at least theoretically possible that even these unreconstructed sinners would remain unrepentant at the moment of death. . .but the key to all of this is that we do not know. My argument makes for a cute little exercise, but in the end, all of us will not know until the end.


#10

[quote=demolitionman65]My challenge to the above is that we do not know what happens at the moment of death. (Death is that “undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveler returns.” -Hamlet, the famous “To be or not to be” speech).

So, it is at least theoretically possible that even these unreconstructed sinners would remain unrepentant at the moment of death. . .but the key to all of this is that we do not know. My argument makes for a cute little exercise, but in the end, all of us will not know until the end.
[/quote]

There’s a huge gap between “we don’t know” and “we do know.”

We can base dogma, beliefs and shape behavior on what we do know. But not on what we don’t know.

We DO know there is sin – it is repeatedly denounced by many inspired authors. We DO know that certain people are marked out as being condemned and mentioned as such by inspired authors.

To assume that because we DON’T know the inner thoughts of these people at the time of their death we can somehow construct a valid belief is very tenuous.


#11

If Universalism is true then 1 of 2 things must follow:

  1. The Scriptures are most certainly not error free or inspired by the HS. They are no more than a gnostic mythology.
  2. The Gospels are true in their transcriptions and therefore Jesus is a liar or at least a misleading riddler and not the straight Revealer of the Truth or the Son of God for HE is not THE TRUTH or the WORD.

This is what ultimately happens when one begins to teach subjectively (a necessary component of personalism) as their Rule of Faith instead objectively as the Sacred Tradition of the Church teaches.

In either case your Faith is in vain.

Meanwhile have fun puddling in this pool of heresy.


#12

I don’t think it is “puddling in a pool of heresy.”

It is a fair question… and a fair topic to PONDER.

Nobody here has made any dogmatic declaration.

One of the Saints… I believe St. Terese of Avila… had a private revelation that ALL receive some kind of “final grace” AT death. God reaches out to us… we can turn to Him… or reject Him. Some DO reject Him. Because of their hearts. (I don’t think this is universalism)

Maybe all we are taught is to keep us CLOSE and RIGHT with our Lord. Keep our HEARTS “right.”

But, then again… this is private revelation. The Church has not approved or dissapproved of this notion.

I say follow our Lord the best you can. PRAY. Trust in Him. Stay close to mother Church who will show us what our Lord wants.

What else can you do?


#13

[quote=TNT] Meanwhile have fun puddling in this pool of heresy.
[/quote]

amen. i cant believe how easily this universalism nonsense is spreading!

people, wake up!

if everyone is saved, there is no need for evangelization, which is totally UNTRUE. universalism is FALSE.

if i had to bet on it, I’d bet there are many souls in hell right now hoping that we’re not dumb enough to fall into the false sense of security that is universalism, as they did.

Jesus makes it very clear: if you want to go to heaven, you better give Him your whole life and nothing less. we absolutely have free will.

adam and eve were not given some second chance to come back into the garden and start over-- no sir, God honored their sinful decision, and he’ll honor yours.

if you believe in universalism, pray to the Holy Spirit for wisdom and ask God for forgiveness for calling Him a liar, not believing that He respects our free choice.

Sorry if this is harsh, but this could mean someone’s eternity is at stake if you think you’re going to heaven no matter what. i dont want to see anyone in hell, myself included!


#14

Of course it’s heresy. Where does the Church say no one will be damned?


#15

I have to agree that universalism is a dangerous heresy. In our age of “don’t offend anyone,” and “don’t hurt any feelings,” people tend not to want to talk about Hell or the very real possibility of ending up there. This leads down the slippery slope of moral relativism. People start tending to think, “I’m a good person in general, I’m not going to Hell. Hell is only for people like Hitler.” Very dangerous thinking right there.


#16

yes, dangerous indeed. Revelation says Jesus spits the lukewarm out of His mouth. so if you dont care one way or the other about God, pray.


#17

[quote=Vinko]I don’t think it is “puddling in a pool of heresy.”

It is a fair question… and a fair topic to PONDER.

Nobody here has made any dogmatic declaration.

One of the Saints… I believe St. Terese of Avila… had a private revelation that ALL receive some kind of “final grace” AT death. God reaches out to us… we can turn to Him… or reject Him. Some DO reject Him. Because of their hearts. (I don’t think this is universalism)

Maybe all we are taught is to keep us CLOSE and RIGHT with our Lord. Keep our HEARTS “right.”

But, then again… this is private revelation. The Church has not approved or dissapproved of this notion.

I say follow our Lord the best you can. PRAY. Trust in Him. Stay close to mother Church who will show us what our Lord wants.

What else can you do?
[/quote]

From This Rock:
…Since universalism already has been condemned by the Church as heretical, neo-universalists have tried to distinguish their position from the condemned version. Unlike prior universalists, they have not claimed that the devil will be reconciled with God (something Scripture and the Church have explicitly rejected). Instead, they simply have failed to discuss the fact that demons will be in hell (prompting one to wonder why, if God did not lift up all the angels who fell [2 Peter 2:4] why he should do so for all men).

They also typically say that, although we cannot assert that hell is empty, we may hope, even confidently hope, that it is empty. If such a maneuver was able to deflect the charge of heresy, it still would be gravely suspect and perhaps proximate to heresy. To allow such a move would pose grave risks for theology generally, since one could take numerous dogmatic definitions and say, “While we cannot assert that this condemned proposition is true, we may confidently hope that it is true.”

Most fundamentally, the idea that we may hope that hell is empty is against the teaching of Scripture. Even if one were to write off all of Scripture’s warnings about hell as purely hypothetical, Scripture directly asserts that many will not be saved…
See the whole article at the site I pegged.

Now I do not mind discussiong HOW this heresy is infecting the Churchmen and even the liturgy and Bible translations, of the last 100 years. I think much good could come from it.
BUT, to discuss it as whether it’s a truth or heresy, is ludicrous. St Anyone notwithstanding.
Finally:
The 2 items of consequence in my previous post still stand.


#18

[quote=vern humphrey]What does the evidence of our own experience tell us?

We have seen in our times some of the most horrific crimes, committed by some of the most evil men – Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and literally thousands of others – who died unrepentant.
[/quote]

Vern, you can’t say they died unrepentant. The grace of God can change someone in an instant. We do not know how they were when they died.


#19

[quote=vern humphrey]Of course it’s heresy. Where does the Church say no one will be damned?
[/quote]

The Church does not reject the idea that all could concievably be saved. They do say there is a hell, but that does not mean that the theory is wrong. The Church also says that we can not know whether a person is in hell because we do not know what graces God bestowed upon that person before they died. We also do not know there heart at death. As long as hell is a possibility, and they are using there own free will to accept God with there whole heart, it is not heresy.

That said, I would say that it is very likely that many people are in hell.


#20

[quote=Ahimsa]A common argument against Universalism (the idea that all will eventually be saved) is that God doesn’t reject us – rather, we reject God, and God cannot override our freedom to reject him.

But ponder this quote from If Grace is True:

**In my obsession with defending human freedom, I forgot a far more important truth: God is free…I believed in God’s power to do anything, **

[/quote]

And herein lies his source of error. The implication that having the “freedom” to do something means you are capable of doing it, is wrong. God can’t do anything. He can’t be unjust, He can’t lie or commit any other sin. In order for the conclusion which follows to have any validity, it must be prove that God allowing people who reject Him into heaven is compatible with his infinite justice.



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