Arianism and the "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"


#1

What are your opinions on this church’s view of the First Council of Nicaea?

  [holy-catholic.org/arian/arian-home.html](http://www.holy-catholic.org/arian/arian-home.html)
  Original Christianity brought into the 21st Century
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  Jesus Christ was a man to be Followed not Worshipped.
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  Trinitarian Apostasy and Heresy
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  The Original Worldwide Christian Church
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  Infallibility 
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  The Petrine Deception
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  The Virgin Birth & Mary
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  The Link with England and the Apostolic Succession
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  Arianism is NOT heresy!
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  St Arius officially NOT a heretic!
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  The Great Heresy and Apostasy.
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  The name “Arian” is not to be confused with “Aryan.”
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  Doctrine and Teachings of St Arius.
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  Sir Isaac Newton (1642 - 1727)
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  Today’s church congregation numbers are waning.
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  What is Arian Catholicism?
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  Arian Catholic Foundations.
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  Arian Catholic Worship and Prayer.

Would you like to take a look at what this site has under all these (if you haven’t already) and give me a few opinions?


#2

Oy… They sound pretty Protestant to me. I don’t mean that in an offensive way, but in the fact that they’re protesting the Church and Christ Himself.

These heretical followers of Arius deserve our prayers!

Pace e Bene
Andrew


#3

I am very familiar with this group. They mix Catholic doctrines (like Purgatory) and celebrations with Arian theology. They are an online church with online membership. They have their own Arian clergy and their own take on things. Among their doctrines are anti-Trinitarianism, denial of the Bodily Resurrection, and of course, denial of the Nicene Creed. Everything they believe is clearly identified on the website…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:


#4

They are claiming they found their beliefs and doctrine before “the Church” came and they explain how “the Church” began.

They are protesting all Protestants as well. Claiming Rome hijacked Christianity and that’s why Protestants can’t agree with them. And, other Catholics.


#5

Explain the Trinity as direct and to the point as this:

The Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus Christ

There is no reference to the Trinity in the Bible and Jesus did not mention the trinity in his teachings, in fact the concept of the trinity was first written about by Tertullian of Carthage ((140-230 A.D.) a Roman Montanist heretic and the son of a Roman Centurion) at the end of the second century, his ideas being taken from Greek and Hindu ideologies, and was not formally adopted into Christianity until the first Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., which was called by Pope Sylvester I and overseen by the Emperor and Pagan High Priest of Rome: Constantine I, in order to pave the way for the Romanization of Christianity against the stance on the divinity of Jesus Christ which was being made by Arius of Alexandria. The Romans were accustomed to polytheism and it was believed that the only way the incurably superstitious Pagan Romans could be converted to Christianity would be if it was integrated with Roman Paganism to create a Christo-Pagan Sect that bore parallels with traditional Roman Paganism. At the time the Orthodox Church believed it had converted its first Roman Emperor, Constantine I, to Christianity although Constantine I retained his Pagan Chief Priest title of “Pontifex Maximus” and was not baptised Christian until he was on his deathbed in 337 A.D.

In the Gospel according to John 1:1 we read that the Word (Logos) meaning Jesus Christ and the Theos were the same. “The Word with God and the Word was God,” this is correct when God uses his servant to be his Messenger and we read in Ezekiel 3:10 that God tells his servant “Son of man, receive into your heart all My words…,” the word of God spoken through the man of God is the Word being made flesh and dwelt among us and therefore in that sense the Word is with God, and the Word was God. The Roman Church misused this verse to help establish the trinity.

It is continued on this page: holy-catholic.org/arian/liturgical_lore.html#trinity


#6

Sure. This from carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm:

What is the Trinity?

 The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence.  In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity.  Each has a will, loves, and says "I", and "You" when speaking.  The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father.  Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God.  There are three individual subsistences, or persons.  The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness.  The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
   Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8).  Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim.  Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

The Trinity
God is three persons
Each person is divine
There is only one God.
Many theologians admit that the term “person” is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities, nor three beings. God, is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them…

Please read the whole article–it is worth it :thumbsup:

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:


#7

Continued…

 The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. But this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are not found in the Bible either. But we use these words to describe the attributes of God.  So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.

Is there subordination in the Trinity?

  There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence.  We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26).  The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10).  The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26).  The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).
 This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine.  For example, we see that the Father sent the Son.  But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature.  The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity, but inferior in his humanity.  A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality.  By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will.  Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38).  Of course Jesus already is King, but the analogy shows that because someone is sent, it doesn't mean they are different than the one who sent him.
 Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way.  But this objection is not logical.  If we look at the analogy of the king and in the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent.  Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human. 

Is this confusing?

Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand – especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God’s essence and nature is not possible. What we have, however, done is derive from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.
It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God’s word to their own reasoning and end in error. The following verses are often used to demonstrate that in the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical.
Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


#8

1 Cor. 12:4-6, Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
Jude 20-21, “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.”

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:


#9

They are vagante with a new twist.

For those curious to meet their primate, see here, where one can even learn his shoe size - now that’s full disclosure if ever I have seen it.

Many years,

Neil


#10

Grrrr… the Arian heretics are still with us! :banghead:

St. Nicholas, pray to God for us!

God bless,

Rony


#11

Haha. Sweet Santa Claus.

For St. Nicholas day at Church for the children we had a reinactment of the goings on between St. Nicholas and Arius.


#12

At leat it’s properly labeled, except laking the mr yuk face.


#13

Here is also a Coptic icon of St. Athanasius of Alexandria, a great Father of the Church against Arianism:

http://www.coptic.net/pictures/Icon.StAthanasius-1.gif

God bless,

Rony


#14

I get the impression that the OP might be looking for a discussion refuting Arianism, which he is inclined to believe.


#15

I know, but I haven’t heard a response to the Trinity article yet…


#16

I just want each difference of opinion refuted. I think everybody searching the truth deserves that much. All of these opinions create doubt in the seeker. This is what creates atheists.


#17

Thank you very much. But, if Jesus is only one part of the Trinity why call him God?


#18

Because each “person” of the Trinity is fully God…Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One in essense without division (separation)…


#19

You have to love Arius though, he was a pretty smart guy. How does God save us? Its at the core of every debate. Eusebius of Ceaserea come on, the guy had friends. I think a little more Arianism, just a small little bit would help today when you see a lot of people today describing Jesus as Marcion would, the classic “God in a man suit” as if God were at a costume ball.

P.S. Good Heresy creates good Orthodoxy.


#20

Because Jesus, as true God and true man, is the Logos of the Trinity.

The Gospel of John identifies Jesus as the incarnation of the Logos-- through which all things are made. The gospel further identifies the Logos as God (theos), providing scriptural support for the trinity all well.

It is in this sense, therefore, that the Logos is both Jesus Christ and God the Son-- because Jesus is revealed from the very beginning as True God and true man.

Perhaps the Greek expression of the Logos within the Scriptures was following the three parts to a syllogism when expessing the trinitarian formula…the major premise, the minor premise, and the conclusion.

Consequently, within Greek philosophy, particuarly the Stoics, the Logos as God (so intimately mingled with the world) is like a fire or ignited air; inasmuch as He is the principle controlling the universe, Within this view, He IS the germ from which all else develops, and is called the seminal Logos (logos spermatikos).

[quote=Stoic Thought]This Logos is at the same time a force and a law, an irresistible force which bears along the entire world and all creatures to a common end, an inevitable and holy law from which nothing can withdraw itself, and which every reasonable man should follow willingly.
[/quote]

When John used the “Logos”, he was borrowing from these Greek thoughts. However, whereas the Stoics thought that the Logos was merely a unconscious law no different than a law of nature periodically manifesting in divinities such as Zeus or Hermes, Christianity understood the Logos to be living, breathing and incarnated within the Virgin and dwelling among us as Christ our Lord.


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