Arianism


#1

Someone on another forum asked about Arianism and if Jesus is God I answered him with quotes from the scripture showing that Jesus is God, he apparently is defending Arianism. What would be some good responses?

Here is what was said,

[quote]“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

” (John 1:1.)

Which doesn’t mention Jesus at all.

“Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord, and my God

” (John 20:28).

“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31)

“Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am

” (John 8:58).

The belief of Arius was that though Jesus was the son of God, his creation predated that of the earth. This wouldn’t contradict that at all.

“For a child is born to us, a son is given to us: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty

, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace." (Isaias 9:6)

Somewhat interesting, but the new testament supercedes the old.

“But the author of life you killed

…” (Acts 3:15)

"3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.

3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses"

“Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus” (Acts:3:26)

I’m not seeing it. Acts clearly differentiates Jesus from God numerous times.

You have heard that it was said to them of old

: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28).

I’ve said ‘but i say to you’ myself before, it hardly means i’m God does it. That’s stretching credulity to it’s limits.

From AD 108, St. Ignatius to the church at Ephesus: "Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to her who has been blessed in greatness through the fulness of God the Father, ordained before time to be always resulting in permanent glory, unchangeably united and chosen in true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ, our God,

to the church which is in Ephesus of Asia, worthy of felicitation: abundant greetings in Jesus Christ and in blameless joy." (Ephesians 1)

“1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.” (Ephesians 1:1 to 1:3)

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory” (Ephesians 1:17)

Just like elsehwhere, Epehesians clearly differentiates between Jesus and God.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence

, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity."

I don’t do dogmas. If people can convince me they’re correct, then i will agree with them. But i don’t ever let people tell me what to think.
[/quote]

He seems to be having trouble understanding that Christ is God and the Son of God.


#2

Hmm. Those are good. Very nice. We learned in our theology class that the Arians were also quite adept at using the scriptures to back up their claim that Jesus was not God. Apparently, if my professor is to be believed, and he probably ought to be, either position can be supported or refuted by using scripture. For that reason, a little philosophy had to be brought in to settle the matter. Here is how it was explained to me:

Arius’s Position: We are monotheists (one God). If the Son is God the Father is God, then there must be two gods, so therefore, Christ is not God because there is only one God.

Athanasius’s Position (The Catholic position): Only God can save us. Jesus Christ saved us. Jesus Christ is God.

And then they went on to explain how Christ is God, and how there is only one God, by applying a neat little term which said Christ was homoousious (I bet I spelled that wrong) with the Father, and that term is the Greek equivalent of ‘consubstantial.’ Basically, Christ is of the same substance of the Father. This all took place at the Council of Nicaea in 325. Have your Arian buddy take a look at that part of the Early Church’s history.

I am not the ideal person to ask though, so hopefully the rest of the gang will contribute to this in a way far better than I am able! Good luck!


#3

As far as I can tell, practically **any ** position can be supported or refuted by using Scripture. :frowning:


#4

Concerning the first point you made, who else could this be referring to:

“The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14)

Clearly, John is referring to Christ when he says “The Word”. Your friend is mistaken.


#5

Yes, I agree that the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly shown in the Scriptures and that the Church had to have used other sources, like philosophy and Tradition, to define this doctrine.

However, I feel that if one is able to fully believe in the divinity of Christ, then he should be able to have no trouble believing in the Blessed Trinity. I don’t know exactly why I think this, but I do.

There is really not explicit proof in the scriptures that the Holy Spirit is co-eternal, and almighty like the Father. There is no where that I know that the Holy Spirit was worshipped, or that we are told to worship Him.

How important is faith.


#6

Dylan O, where does this guy or gal worship? What religion does he belong to?


#7

I don’t do dogmas. If people can convince me they’re correct, then i will agree with them. But i don’t ever let people tell me what to think.

Couldn’t the underlined belief be considered a Dogma? I wonder who “convinced” him to think like this, since he evidently doesn’t allow people to tell him what to think?

It sounds like that whole, “All generalizations are false” or the, “the only absolute rule is that there are no rules” sayings. “I don’t do dogmas, but I will do and accept this one.” :rolleyes:

The word dogma (Gr. dogma from dokein) signifies, in the writings of the ancient classical authors, sometimes, an opinion or that which seems true to a person; sometimes, the philosophical doctrines or tenets, and especially the distinctive philosophical doctrines, of a particular school of philosophers (cf. Cic. Ac., ii, 9), and sometimes, a public decree or ordinance, as dogma poieisthai.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05089a.htm

God bless


#8

[INDENT]“Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord, and my God” (John 20:28). “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31)[/INDENT] Jesus is God + Jesus is the Son of God = Trinitarian (not Arian) belief.

[INDENT]“Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am” (John 8:58).

The belief of Arius was that though Jesus was the son of God, his creation predated that of the earth. This wouldn’t contradict that at all.[/INDENT] That’s a strawman. Both Christians and Arians believe that Jesus was around before Abraham. The issue is should we believe Jesus when he says “before Abraham was made, I am” or should we modify Jesus’s testemony to read “before Abraham was, I was.”

[INDENT]“For a child is born to us, a son is given to us: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace." (Isaias 9:6)

Somewhat interesting, but the new testament supercedes the old.[/INDENT] The New Testament *fufils *the old. For example, Jesus was a fufilment of this prophesy.

[INDENT]“But the author of life you killed…” (Acts 3:15)

"3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.

3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses"

“Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus” (Acts:3:26)

I’m not seeing it. Acts clearly differentiates Jesus from God numerous times.[/INDENT] That’s no contradiction. Jesus and God are different persons (but not different Gods).

[INDENT]You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28).
I’ve said ‘but i say to you’ myself before, it hardly means i’m God does it. That’s stretching credulity to it’s limits.[/INDENT] But Jesus isn’t just talking about some other human, “Thou shalt…” is one of the ten commandments, spoken to Moses by God himself. By placing himself above God’s law, Jesus is placing himself equal to God. Moses for example couldn’t get away with saying “God says ‘thou shalt not…’ but I (Moses) say to you…”

Quote:
[INDENT]From AD 108, St. Ignatius to the church at Ephesus: “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to her who has been blessed in greatness through the fulness of God the Father, ordained before time to be always resulting in permanent glory, unchangeably united and chosen in true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ, our God, to the church which is in Ephesus of Asia, worthy of felicitation: abundant greetings in Jesus Christ and in blameless joy.” (Ephesians 1)

“1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.” (Ephesians 1:1 to 1:3)

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory” (Ephesians 1:17)

Just like elsehwhere, Epehesians clearly differentiates between Jesus and God.[/INDENT] That’s because Ephesians is in accord with Trinitarian belief: We believe in **one **God. His (not their) name (not names) is God (not Gods) the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Can we differentiate between the three persons? Yes, since that’s the clear meaning of scripture. Can we say that Jesus is not God? No. Not when the clear meaning of scripture is that Jesus Christ (is) our God.


#9

he has redefined “son of god” to be a created being, thus he assumes that each use of the word “son” proves his case.

quote John 1:1-18, Col 1:15-18

The Son of God is the creator, he created “all things”, if he is a JW his cult added the word “other” to avoid the meaning of the text. If the Son of God created all things, then that means the Son of God himself is NOT created. They will redefine “firstborn” in Col 1 to mean “first created”. Firstborn means preeminence.

Colossians 1:15-20 (King James Version)

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The Jews understood “Son of God” as used by Jesus to mean God.

John 5:18-23 (King James Version)

18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that **God was his Father, making himself equal with God. **

19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

They will try to say the jews were wrong about everything – point out his anti-jewish bias. Jesus would not have told the people to listen to those on the “seat of Moses” if they were wrong about everything. In the succeding verses point out that Jesus followed his fathers’ direction, but he did the works under his own power.

Matthew 26:63-65 (New International Version)

63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the **Son of God.” **

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.

claiming to be a mere creature, son of god would not be blasphemy as they interprted the meaning of Jesus words.

Rev 1

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

We know that Jesus is the one who “is to come”, and that he is the one who was “pierced”. So, when was almighty God pierced?

John 1:18 and 6:46 says that no man has seen God the Father. But, Isaiah did see God in Isaiah 6. For us, this is no problem because Isaiah could have simply seen God the Son. He will have to do some interresting gymastics to get around the text.

spotlightministries.org.uk/bowmanonthetrinity.htm

This biblical outline on the trinity often shuts down the JWs.

Exodus 18:13
The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening.

Matthew 23:2
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.


#10

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