Arrogance and ignorance because the CC is THE Church

#21

[quote=Paris Blues]How do I respond when the guy said:

**" Look through the Bible and see how little Peter did, it was Paul who built the portion of the church that took hold and became what you are now a member of, the church of Rome. Don’t you consider that huge hole in the RCC’s crazy notion that God would put the well being of the church into the hands of one man? What nonsense, completely loopy that God would build the church on a man, Peter or any one other than the God-Man CHRIST.**The church is build on God/Christ and is powered by the Holy Spirit, that aspect of God that is among us and within the believer."

Do I tell him about Matthew 16:17-18 about when Christ said you are Peter and upon this rock…etc?

Guys, I know you will tell me to block this dude’s e-mail address! Well, I’m not going to. This guy is NOT being TOO mean or anything, just confused I guess.

Remember, it’s our job in a way to help non-Catholics but we can’t convert them, only God can.:wink:
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Yes, Matt 16:18 and also the one where Jesus tells Peter to feed His sheep (sorry, can’t remember it off the top of my head). In Acts, Peter also is the one who’s in charge during the Council of Jerusalem. MAybe someone can help me out with the specific verses.

Then, show him the stuff from the early Church fathers on the main CA page.

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#22

Before you go any further, you must first establish how you read the scriptures differently from those who read them as literalists. You do not. As a Catholic you read the scriptures and take them *literally *- or, in a literal sense. What is the difference?

Use this as an example: A person comes to you and says, “Paris, it is raining cats and dogs outside”. Do you think it is raining really hard? Then you are taking that sentence in a literal sense. Do you think cats and dogs are falling from clouds and bonking us on the head and splattering all over the sidewalks? Then you are regarding that sentence in a literalist sense.

Once that is established, begin your study and arguments. Remember, you must argue from LOVE and not frustration or anger or fear. Before you answer your friend, take time to pray. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide your words and your mind.

Begin.

Refer him to Matthew 16:18 - 19, 16:19 (gives Peter the Keys to the Kingdom, the power to bind and loose).
Luke 22:32 Peter’s faith will strenghthen his brethren
Mark 16:7 - an angel sent to announce Resurrection to Peter
Luke 24:34 risen Jesus first appeared to Peter

Now some will argue that because Jesus first appeared to St. Mary Magdalene that she would be the first Pope; however, she was not given the keys to the kingdom, the power to bind or to loose, and her names was not changed to signify the rock, or foundation, upon which the Christian Church will be built.

Catholics regard this passages as Jesus designating Peter as the foundation of our Church. We trace Apolstolic succession from Peter. That cannot be taken out of context and you must insist that your use the translations developed by St. Jerome and other early Church Fathers.
Matthew 18: 17-18 - ‘if he refuses to listen even to Church’

Matthew 28: 18-20 - go baptize and teach all nations

Mark 16:15-16 'go to whole world and proclaim the gospel

John 10:16 - one shepherd to shepherd Christ’s sheep.

The argument that Paul, being a prolific writer, proves that he did MORE than anyone else, including St. Peter, is a faulty argument. First, note that Paul sought our Peter to study under him, which implies that Paul recognized Peter’s authority or he would have sought out another of the Apostles.

The Roman Catholic Church does not rely solely upon the scriptures. However we do believe that the Church should be one - See Romans 16:17 advising us to avoid those who create dissensions and Paul’s own words in 1st Cor 11:2 commending the listeners for following Apostolic tradition.

Also, note to you friend that Peter’s name is always listed first when the names of the Apostles are listed. In fact, while Paul wrote more Peter’s name occurs 195 times, more than all the rest put together.

Since you are determined to keep this going, may I suggest you request that your friend keep his language from being offensive or demeaning. Refering to our beliefs as “loopy” shows a marked lack of respect or willingness to listen or consider your arguments. If he cannot do this with love, he is violating his own scripture.

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#23

What about this:

"…and I tell you that there was NO RCC at the time there was simply THE FACTIONS of the universal church (which by the by is the real meaning of Catholic, that word means the universal (God’s sheep from many pens or denominations). I think this is the point that you are overlooking, no rcc at that time, none but no organized denominations only cell groups of believers.

[font=Lucida Calligraphy]You ask why the various denominations disagree on so many points I would use an analogy and ask you how can you and I and the millions of others in this country consider themselves to be American if we believe TOTALLY different things, contradict each other and DON’T AGREE. We do consider ourselves American and so we each are.

You must recognize this and admit it but don’t stop there move to the level of thought to then apply that analogy to our discussion, you will find it beautifully enlightening.

You and I and all others who call on the name of Jesus MUST focus on Christ, nothing else, not the Baptist, Martin Luther, the RCC, they are all just tools and implements to drawn near to one another as we draw near to Christ. It is Christ that is our Savior not the church not THE church not any of that, remember that without Christ they (whether the rcc or protestant) is but the Pharisee group."
[/font]Ahhhhh…help here…:wink:

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#24

He is getting very hung up on the word “ROMAN”. He is correct - we regard ourselves as CATHOLIC CHRISTIANS - Roman signifies two things:

  1. Peter was the BISHOP OF ROME, hence the name
  2. Peter’s place among the Apostles was first, therefore his place of service - Rome - is regarded as the seat of power and leadership on EARTH.

I would reply to his argument about Americans having so many different opinions as a weak argument - one refers to a government and country created by MAN. Christians such as himself regard the Bible as the WORD OF GOD - which does he take as more important.

If he regards the Bible as the Word of God - which, by the way, The Catholic Church does and has ALWAYS DONE, then he needs to respond specifically to your question as to why Protestants have so many different interpretations of that Word. To whom does he go for his authority? HIMSELF? Then he is going against that very word…

See Acts 5:1-11 Peter inflicted first punishment
Acts 8:21 - excommunicated the first heretic
Acts 15:19 - pronounces first dogmatic decision.

Paris - are you taking time to pray - at least one full hour of deep prayer before the Eucharist or at least in meditative prayer - before you read the scripture passages provided and answer your friend’s email?:love:

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#25

I think the guy has an issue with Peter being the one with the keys…read what he sent moi:

"I am weary of this discussion it just circles around with misuse of Scripture and a total refusal to accept history as it occurred and not as it is told. The RCC misuses and mininterpretes that verse, back up a verse or three and you will see that it
*
Mat 16:13 When Jesus arrived in the villages of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “What are people saying about who the Son of Man is?”

Mat 16:14 They replied, “Some think he is John the Baptizer, some say Elijah, some Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.”

Mat 16:15 He pressed them, “And how about you? Who do you say I am?”

Mat 16:16 Simon Peter said, “You’re the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Mat 16:17 Jesus came back, "God bless you, Simon, son of Jonah! You didn’t get that answer out of books or from teachers. My Father in heaven, God himself, let you in on this secret of who I really am.

Mat 16:18 And now I’m going to tell you who you are, really are. You are Peter, a rock. This is the rock on which I will put together my church, a church so expansive with energy that not even the gates of hell will be able to keep it out.

It is not Peter that he is referring to but the faith he expressed. He was but one of many who was asked the question and he just happened to be the one who answered first but then that was his style wasn’t it? Peter is know as being impulsive, that was him at his most lovable.

The RCC has used this misrepresentation to great advantage I have to had them that."

What do I tell him?

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#26

[quote=Paris Blues]I think the guy has an issue with Peter being the one with the keys…read what he sent moi:

"I am weary of this discussion it just circles around with misuse of Scripture and a total refusal to accept history as it occurred and not as it is told. The RCC misuses and mininterpretes that verse, back up a verse or three and you will see that it
*
Mat 16:13 When Jesus arrived in the villages of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “What are people saying about who the Son of Man is?”

Mat 16:14 They replied, “Some think he is John the Baptizer, some say Elijah, some Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.”

Mat 16:15 He pressed them, “And how about you? Who do you say I am?”

Mat 16:16 Simon Peter said, “You’re the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Mat 16:17 Jesus came back, "God bless you, Simon, son of Jonah! You didn’t get that answer out of books or from teachers. My Father in heaven, God himself, let you in on this secret of who I really am.

Mat 16:18 And now I’m going to tell you who you are, really are. You are Peter, a rock. This is the rock on which I will put together my church, a church so expansive with energy that not even the gates of hell will be able to keep it out.

It is not Peter that he is referring to but the faith he expressed. He was but one of many who was asked the question and he just happened to be the one who answered first but then that was his style wasn’t it? Peter is know as being impulsive, that was him at his most lovable.

The RCC has used this misrepresentation to great advantage I have to had them that."

What do I tell him?
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Send him to the CA home page library. Do not try to respond. Trust me, Paris, you need to get out of these contentious situations and give yourself a little peace. If YOU want to bone up on the subject, go and read those articles for yourself.

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#27

[quote=mercygate]Send him to the CA home page library. Do not try to respond. Trust me, Paris, you need to get out of these contentious situations and give yourself a little peace. If YOU want to bone up on the subject, go and read those articles for yourself.
[/quote]

Oh I have in the past but they tell me that 'it’s only a website with FALSE info. because that’s what the CC thinks!!!" :frowning:

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#28

i have had a good friend tell me that he think I am arrogant about my faith and that the Catholic Church is arrogant. Then he went on telling me how wonderful his non-denominational church is because they do not have to adhere to any formal religious teachings and so forth. So I asked him if he thinks it is better to be a non-denominational Christian than one from a formal religious tradition…seeing the trap I laid for him he wouldnt answer my question.

however, he was in fact telling me in so many words that his Church is better than mine because mine thinks it is the best! how about that for logic folks??

so not only was he guilty of thinking his church was better (which is what i was accused of), but he took it further by actually telling me that he thought this (which is something i have not done)!

but we are the arrogant ones! ahhhhh! :rolleyes:

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#29

[quote=Paris Blues]Oh I have in the past but they tell me that 'it’s only a website with FALSE info. because that’s what the CC thinks!!!" :frowning:
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Remember Mark 6:11? And if any place will not receive you and they refuse to hear you, when you leave, shake off thedust that is on your feet for a testimony against them."

To get into a dialogue with people like this will devolve into a “Is not!” “Is too!” dialectic which will end in futility.

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#30

Could this passage relate to be One:

1 Corinthians 1:10:

10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

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#31

[quote=Paris Blues]Oh I have in the past but they tell me that 'it’s only a website with FALSE info. because that’s what the CC thinks!!!" :frowning:
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These people are just upset that the Catholic Church is the only Church that with a straight face can make the claim of the one true Church. Their ecclesial communities were founded by men. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ.

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#32

[quote=Paris Blues]Could this passage relate to be One:

1 Corinthians 1:10:

10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
[/quote]

:amen: Excellent!:thumbsup: Although, I’m sure they’ll have some goofy interpretation of this passage.

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#33

[quote=Genesis315]:amen: Excellent!:thumbsup: Although, I’m sure they’ll have some goofy interpretation of this passage.
[/quote]

Yeah, when I came across that, I was like, hey, that’s it!!!

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closed #34
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