Article stating " The Roman Catholic "Church" is Not Christian" and more crazy accusations


#1

I stumbled upon this website while looking for information from another thread.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm
I am just recently (the past year or so) finding my way back into The Church and am quite ignorant to quite a few of the teachings but, I’m working on it :slight_smile: . I’m sure the more I study the more the things that were mentioned in the link above will be cleared up but, I am impatient :blush: . I was hoping that some of you could clear up some of the accusations this person has made in his “article” Such as:

  1. " The Roman Catholic Church is not Christian"? I was raised to believe that anyone who is a follower of Christ is considered a Christian.

  2. The statement that it is a sin to call anyone but The Lord “Father” I looked up the Matthew 23:9 and it does in fact state “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one father in heaven.” If that is so, why do we address Priests as Father?

  3. The statement "CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them."
When I looked up Exodus 20:4-5 it does state " You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them…"
I, myself, don’t worship statues because that’s what they are but I don’t see anything wrong with them as long as you aren’t worshiping the statues themselves.

  1. The statement that we are to confess our sins to God and God alone. I have always struggled with this myself. I realize that it is a Sacrament of the CC but won’t God forgive me if I am truly sorry for my sins and ask him, in private, for forgiveness?

  2. Another one that has boggled my mind is why we do have to pay to have a mass said for the departed? Does having a Mass for someone really have to have a price?

I would really like some other views on these topics and the other topics stated in the “article” above. Thanks :slight_smile:


#2

Welcome back

The CC is so different from Protestant denominations in its way of worship that many of them believe the CC teaches serious errors and is leading people away from Jesus.

  1. The statement that it is a sin to call anyone but The Lord “Father” I looked up the Matthew 23:9 and it does in fact state “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one father in heaven.” If that is so, why do we address Priests as Father?

Luke 16:24 - Jesus calls Abraham “Father Abraham”.
Romans 4:1-18 - St Paul calls Abraham “Father Abraham”.
1 Cor.4:14-15 - St Paul calls HIMSELF “Father” when speaking to the Corinthians
Acts 7:1-2 - St Stephen calls the elders of Jerusalem "Fathers"
1 John 2:13 - St John addressing the “fathers” of his flock
Titus 1:4 - St Paul addresses Titus as his "my beloved son"
Tim. 1:2 - Ditto for Timothy

Jesus meant, not that we must literally not call anyone “father” but that we must not usurp the Fatherhood of God

  1. The statement "CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them."
When I looked up Exodus 20:4-5 it does state " You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them…"
I, myself, don’t worship statues because that’s what they are but I don’t see anything wrong with them as long as you aren’t worshiping the statues themselves.

Since we are not making idols to worship, you are correct.

Numbers 21:8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.

Exodus 25:18-20 *Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered. *

  1. The statement that we are to confess our sins to God and God alone. I have always struggled with this myself. I realize that it is a Sacrament of the CC but won’t God forgive me if I am truly sorry for my sins and ask him, in private, for forgiveness?

That might do for minor/venial sins, but since the first thing Jesus did when He appeared to the Apostles after the Resurrection was to give them the power to forgive sins or to withhold forgiveness, I believe that makes it pretty important. And how could they withhold forgiveness if the sins weren’t confessed? John 20:23

  1. Another one that has boggled my mind is why we do have to pay to have a mass said for the departed? Does having a Mass for someone really have to have a price?

Luke 10:7, 1 Timothy 5:18, & Matthew 10:10 all tell us that the workman is worthy of his hire.

Back then, people would “pay” in food and accomodation. Today we use money so that the priest can provide for his needs, whatever they are. A priest I know sends Mass stipends to missionary countries where the priests have so little of everything, even food.

Most priests would say the Mass for nothing if the person couldn’t afford anything. Don’t forget, they don’t get the high pay many non-Catholic ministers seem to get. Their “work” is saying Mass, teaching, and supplying the Sacraments.

I’ll let someone else have a go at other topics for now.


#3

First of all, let me say, welcome back. :extrahappy: I pray you continue your journey home and that all will be made clear to you.

Your post has actually asked several questions and it is easier to address these as separate threads since it gets very confusing as to which point is being discussed. There are currently several threads ongoing about your questions which a simple search should turn up.

Here is one thread on confession:
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=177645&highlight=confession

Check out the Apologetics Forum and the Non-Catholic Religions Forum. This is where you will find most of these questions addressed. I aslo suggest that you consult the Catechism to see what the Church actually teaches as opposed to what someone says it teaches. There is a lot of misinformation out there.

The Catechism:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM


#4

By chance I just came across a story I read many years ago, from the Premier Edition of Envoy Magazine. It is about a Christian missionary who went to Guatamala to convert those misguided Catholics who were part of a cult but didn’t know it. It is an interesting story.

envoymagazine.com/backissues/0.1/solved.htm


#5

My view will be short.

Do you think 500 year old theology is right? Or 2000 year?

Makes it pretty simple. the jonny-come-latelys saying that the gates of hell prevailed over the church until an angry Catholic persecutor named Luther vandalized a church door seems a bit silly


#6

Thanks so much for the information! I am slowly but surely learning and you have cleared those up for me :slight_smile: Thanks again and God bless!!!


#7

Linda Marie: Thanks so much for your input :slight_smile: I am definitely seeing how misinformed other denominations are. Since I was away from the CC for so long (I’m only 27 now) I have been so ignorant to It’s teachings. I was in Sunday school as a child and took Theology classes in grammar and high school but I guess my mind was in other places. But, I can never recall any of my teachers being so judgemental about other religions as Protestants etc. are of the CC. It is so sad! Aren’t we supposed to love one another regardless of race, or religion? And who are they to say we are going to hell lol? It is so outrageous. I could go on forever but I’m going to restrain myself lol.

Eileen T: That story was beautiful!! Thank you for sharing!

PepeRoni: I agree completely :thumbsup:


#8

There is such a thing in Catholic doctrine that is called an “act of perfect contrition” although they are probably very rare. Here’s what the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) has to say about perfect contrition:

[quote=CCC 1452-1454]1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

1454 The reception of this sacrament ought to be prepared for by an examination of conscience made in the light of the Word of God. The passages best suited to this can be found in the Ten Commandments, the moral catechesis of the Gospels and the apostolic Letters, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the apostolic teachings.53
[/quote]

BTW – don’t patronize jesus-is-lord.com… it is simply anti-Catholic Fundamentalist GARBAGE.


#9

Yeah, perfect contrition would be very difficult and rare. Thanks for your input! I don’t wish to EVER visit jesus-is-lord.com again! I regrettably stumbled across it in the first place. But, it was a blessing in some ways. It has made me more curious about some of the teachings of the CC and has prompted me to seek more information that will help me on my road back into the CC. Hehe, I bet that’s not what the writer intended. Backfired on em! hehe He/she is in my prayers though :frowning: So sad that there are such closed minded people out there.


#10

I didn’t read every word of each reply and this may have been covered, but there is a distinct difference between veneration and worship.

Of course, we do neither directed to statues, icons, etc., but of course are accused of such. It’s interesting, though, that the same veneration that we give isn’t seen as such when a protestant minister bows to the altar or a cross…or for that matter, any protestant wearing a (empty) cross.

At least the crucifix is a representation of Christ, but that’s not a point worthwhile arguing over (although some do).

-N2


#11

There’s a favorite hymn of the protestants; The Old Rugged Cross, in which they exclaim to “love” it and “cherish” it in every verse,…and one day exchange it for a “crown”.

Welcome back to the Church!!:slight_smile:
I think I’ve found the answers to all of my questions in the Catechism.
As a matter of fact I just ordered a new copy this morning!

catholiccompany.com/product_detail.cfm?ID=713


#12

Or it may be common and difficult. Normally penances imposed in confession are relatively light. However if you bypass God’s ministers and apply directly to the throne of grace, you might find that, although the request is granted, it is not granted in a way that makes it more convenient that the approved method.


#13

Nice posts, Eileen. And thanks for the link.


#14

I’ve seen all this stuff before. These people are talking through their hats… You’ll find a great many answers here at Anti-Catholicism

These people consider that anyone that doesn’t agree with them in every particular is not a Christian. Yet they believe things that we do not believe, and that the Christian church never believed until about 500 years ago.

  1. The statement that it is a sin to call anyone but The Lord “Father” I looked up the Matthew 23:9 and it does in fact state “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one father in heaven.” If that is so, why do we address Priests as Father?

Call No Man Father?

  1. The statement "CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images.Pope bows to statues of Mary, and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them."
When I looked up Exodus 20:4-5 it does state " You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them…"
I, myself, don’t worship statues because that’s what they are but I don’t see anything wrong with them as long as you aren’t worshiping the statues themselves.

Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

people worship the Eucharist

The Eucharist IS Scriptural

  1. The statement that we are to confess our sins to God and God alone. I have always struggled with this myself. I realize that it is a Sacrament of the CC but won’t God forgive me if I am truly sorry for my sins and ask him, in private, for forgiveness?

Confession (Fathers*)
Forgiveness of Sins

  1. Another one that has boggled my mind is why we do have to pay to have a mass said for the departed? Does having a Mass for someone really have to have a price?

It’s just a donation, ($5-$10 usually) but if you’re broke just tell your pastor and he’ll waive it. It doesn’t go to the priest.:rolleyes:


#15

I’ve seen all this stuff before. These people are talking through their hats… You’ll find a great many answers here at Anti-Catholicism

These people consider that anyone that doesn’t agree with them in every particular is not a Christian. Yet they believe things that we do not believe, and that the Christian church never believed until about 500 years ago.

  1. The statement that it is a sin to call anyone but The Lord “Father” I looked up the Matthew 23:9 and it does in fact state “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one father in heaven.” If that is so, why do we address Priests as Father?

Call No Man Father?

  1. The statement "CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images.Pope bows to statues of Mary, and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them."
When I looked up Exodus 20:4-5 it does state " You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them…"
I, myself, don’t worship statues because that’s what they are but I don’t see anything wrong with them as long as you aren’t worshiping the statues themselves.

Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

people worship the Eucharist

The Eucharist IS Scriptural

  1. The statement that we are to confess our sins to God and God alone. I have always struggled with this myself. I realize that it is a Sacrament of the CC but won’t God forgive me if I am truly sorry for my sins and ask him, in private, for forgiveness?

Confession (Fathers*)

Forgiveness of Sins


#16

I’ve seen all this stuff before. These people are talking through their hats… You’ll find a great many answers here at Anti-Catholicism

These people consider that anyone that doesn’t agree with them in every particular is not a Christian. Yet they believe things that we do not believe, and that the Christian church never believed until about 500 years ago.

  1. The statement that it is a sin to call anyone but The Lord “Father” I looked up the Matthew 23:9 and it does in fact state “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one father in heaven.” If that is so, why do we address Priests as Father?

Call No Man Father?

  1. The statement "CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images.Pope bows to statues of Mary, and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them."
When I looked up Exodus 20:4-5 it does state " You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them…"
I, myself, don’t worship statues because that’s what they are but I don’t see anything wrong with them as long as you aren’t worshiping the statues themselves.

Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

people worship the Eucharist

The Eucharist IS Scriptural

  1. The statement that we are to confess our sins to God and God alone. I have always struggled with this myself. I realize that it is a Sacrament of the CC but won’t God forgive me if I am truly sorry for my sins and ask him, in private, for forgiveness?

Confession (Fathers*)

Forgiveness of Sins


#17

Piece of advice…bring on any one allegation each in separate threads and take it that way and watch us take Tracy’s lies and misinformation apart. :thumbsup:


#18

Same thing happened with me. My Testimony


#19

This is one of the more blatant anti-Catholic sites. One of top ten thousand or so anti-Catholic sites. :rolleyes:

I am just recently (the past year or so) finding my way back into The Church and am quite ignorant to quite a few of the teachings but, I’m working on it :slight_smile: . I’m sure the more I study the more the things that were mentioned in the link above will be cleared up but, I am impatient :blush: . I was hoping that some of you could clear up some of the accusations this person has made in his “article” Such as:

  1. " The Roman Catholic Church is not Christian"? I was raised to believe that anyone who is a follower of Christ is considered a Christian.

That would seem self-evident, at least to people who don’t hate the Catholic Church.

  1. The statement that it is a sin to call anyone but The Lord “Father” I looked up the Matthew 23:9 and it does in fact state “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one father in heaven.” If that is so, why do we address Priests as Father?

Why do Protestants call their male parents “father”? Why do some of the Apostles call themselves “father”?

  1. The statement "CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them."
When I looked up Exodus 20:4-5 it does state " You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them…"
I, myself, don’t worship statues because that’s what they are but I don’t see anything wrong with them as long as you aren’t worshiping the statues themselves.

Once again, they are selective in their outrage. That is, they choose parts to condemn the Catholic Church while giving themselves a dispensation. What Exodus 20:4 really says is “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;”

Taken literally, that means no photos of grandma or the kids. No money (pictures!). No movies. No kids’ drawings from school. No pink flamingos on the lawn. The list goes on and on. But they don’t hold themselves to the letter of the law.

  1. The statement that we are to confess our sins to God and God alone. I have always struggled with this myself. I realize that it is a Sacrament of the CC but won’t God forgive me if I am truly sorry for my sins and ask him, in private, for forgiveness?

God has given us each sacrament for a reason. The reason he has given us the sacrament of Confession is because we are human, with all the weakness and doubt that entails. The presence of a priest causes us to have a greater (and perhaps more sincere) sorrow and repugnance for our sins. It also allows for the possibility of spiritual counseling. And it allows us to actually hear the words of forgiveness and to know without doubt that we are forgiven (those who confess to God are very often left with lingering doubts).

Face the real reasons that you would rather confess privately to God alone, and you will begin to understand the benefits of confessing to a priest.

Now that you’ve discovered the world of anti-Catholicism, you should read John Henry Newman’s essay on the matter. Here’s the link, and here’s one of the “money quotes”:

If you would have some direct downright proof that Catholicism is what Protestants make it to be, something which will come up to the mark, you must lie; else you will not get beyond feeble suspicions, which may be right, but may be wrong. Hence Protestants are obliged to cut their ninth commandment out of their Decalogue. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” must go, must disappear; their position requires the sacrifice. The substance, the force, the edge of their Tradition is slander…Taking things as they are, and judging of them by the long run, one may securely say, that the anti-Catholic Tradition could not be kept alive, would die of exhaustion, without a continual supply of fable.


#20

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