article that is posted on noncatholic website to disprove Catholic faith.

I recently read this thread posted on a Christian, but non Catholic thread about what they feel is the true beginning of the Catholic church and why they think it is a pagen church. Can anyone help me refute this article and defend our faith. The article she quotes from is a bit long so please bear with me.

The posting stated::confused:

The holy catholic (universal) church was the first Church. When the Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, he blended it’s teaching with Roman paganism, resulting in a distortion of theological understanding and practices. The Roman Catholic Church continued to subvert Christianity during the Middle Ages, until Martin Luther challenged them with his 95 theses in 1517. Not intending to leave the Church, he exhorted them to re-examine their errant theology and corrupt practices (indulgences.) However, he was excommunicated by the Pope, and declared an “outlaw” by the Emperor. The following is a very informative article on the origin of the Catholic Church.

Question: “What is the origin of the Catholic Church?”

Answer: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately 30 A.D. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the Church that Jesus Christ died for, the Church that was established and built by the Apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus, or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship / adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity at the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called together the Council of Nicea, in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

Constantine found that with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive, and diverse – not everyone would agree to forsake their religious beliefs and instead embrace Christianity. So, Constantine allowed, and even promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Completely pagan and utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some clear examples of this are as follows:

The rest of the article.

There’s only two things that a Protestant needs to know about the Catholic Church

i) A priest leads a Mass and changes the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ
ii) A priests hears confession and says “I absolve you of your sins”

Nothing else - not even all that other stuff in their post - is important. What’s the point of dismissing all of that other stuff if they still don’t understand the two important things I’ve listed just above?

The real question is whether you believe their rubbish. If so, then post your questions separately (one per thread) - and you’ll get better responses.

Thanks Charlie Z. Will consider your suggestions. Do you know of any literature that is to the contrary. to that article? Or maybe it doesn’t matter.

Just noticed you are from Sydney, Australia. My daughter is heading there tomorrow for World Youth Day. What is the weather like there?. Being from sunny CA it is hard to judge what to pack.

haha - it’s very cold here is Sydney this week. Maybe the timing from the Catholic Church is deliberate; They chose a cold week so that the youth will keep their clothes on. :stuck_out_tongue: (Sorry, that was just a dirty joke.)

There so much you can read about the creation of the church. Here are some of my favourite links…

Catholic Church as The Bride of Christ
home.inreach.com/bstanley/bride.htm

St Peter’s keys and its authority
members.aol.com/joyinliving7/keys.html

Christmas and Paganism
cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=39

Mary, Mother of Redemption
udayton.edu/mary/meditations/thomasaquinas.html

Oh, there is so much more. You’ll be reading for years. Unlike the Protestants who have it all figured out, there is so much joy in reading on our history and learning so much. I hope that you - like me - become addicted to these forums.

Hi jerseyangel! Hmm, what can I say, there are lots of accusations there. But I have to ask: why is he quoting the New Testament? Doesn’t that author know that it is this same Roman Catholic Church whose Tradition that author respects when he quoted Paul’s second letter to Timothy?

Look in any history book. It is the same Roman Catholic Church who sifted and compiled the New Testament from hundreds and even possibly thousands of documents existent then. The same church that “paganized” Christianity.

:thumbsup:

PS: I think it would benefit you to read G.K. Chesterton’s greatest works: Orthodoxy and The Everlasting Man, which along with so many things deal with the relationship of Christianity and paganism. Both can be downloaded here.

Ack! I also forgot another of Chesterton’s works, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND CONVERSION. A quote from the book speaks volumes, at least for me:

What is any man who has been in the real outer world, for instance, to make of the everlasting cry that Catholic traditions are condemned by the Bible? It indicates a jumble of topsy-turvy tests and tail-foremost arguments, of which I never could at any time see the sense. The ordinary sensible sceptic or pagan is standing in the street (in the supreme character of the man in the street) and he sees a procession go by of the priests of some strange cult, carrying their object of worship under a canopy, some of them wearing high head-dresses and carrying symbolical staffs, others carrying scrolls and sacred records, others carrying sacred images and lighted candles before them, others sacred relics in caskets or cases, and so on. I can understand the spectator saying, “This is all hocus-pocus”; I can even understand him, in moments of irritation, breaking up the procession, throwing down the images, tearing up the scrolls, dancing on the priests and anything else that might express that general view. I can understand his saying, “Your croziers are bosh, your candles are bosh, your statues and scrolls and relics and all the rest of it are bosh.” But in what conceivable frame of mind does he rush in to select one particular scroll of the scriptures of this one particular group (a scroll which had always belonged to them and been a part of their hocus-pocus, if it was hocus-pocus); why in the world should the man in the street say that one particular scroll was not bosh, but was the one and only truth by which all the other things were to be condemned? Why should it not be as superstitious to worship the scrolls as the statues, of that one particular procession? Why should it not be as reasonable to preserve the statues as the scrolls, by the tenets of that particular creed? To say to the priests, “Your statues and scrolls are condemned by our common sense,” is sensible. To say, “Your statues are condemned by your scrolls, and we are going to worship one part of your procession and wreck the rest,” is not sensible from any standpoint, least of all that of the man in the street.

Perhaps you could ‘ask’ them “Jersey”

When Jesus established a church in Matt:16, where is that church?

Can they physically trace their denomination to that moment or to any Apostle; Barnabas, Timothy, Paul, et al. let alone, Peter?

When Constantine became ‘Christian’ did he attend singing and clapping fests or did he partake in the Eucharistic meal as every other Catholic? What does that show?

Why use a ‘Catholic’ book to present a case against Catholicism?

:cool:

One simple way to answer it is using the wiki site about the council of nicia. This article presents false information about that council. Now, if a historical fact that can easily be checked is incorrect, how much of the rest is wrong?

Try readings of the Ealy Church Fathers, they can show many Catholic beliefs were in place long before Constantine.
Read the Didache, St Ignatious of Antioch, St. Justin Martyr. St Polycarp. St Hippolitus of Rome.
Search the Wikis and the Councils on Nicea, Hippo and Carthague.
That article is a classic example of the lying for Jesus, “the CC was invented by Constantine”, real history be dammed, minset of many anticatholics.
But there is so much to refute that you have to breake it down in parts.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I would say dont bother. you cant prove anything to these people.

i can only say one thing do not fall for the temptations of the devil.

just say, get behind me satan. an move on.

seek those who wants to be taught. we dont need to defend the Church. these attacks on the church will never stop. Let the Lord of House take care of this.

Lovely. :thumbsup:

Unless you are a Jew, your ancestors worshiped false gods and engaged in pagan rituals. The Church’s stance is that it never rejects what is good from another culture or religion. Thus many old ceremonies have been adopted and “christianized.” We Catholics don’t have a problem with converting the pagan midwinter festival to the birth of Christ, or blessing the pagan wells in Ireland and rededicating them to St. Brigit. If others find it offensive then they shouldn’t do it, but they shouldn’t condemn those who do.

Instead, they should do a little research to see whether the customs they observe might also have pagan roots: such as Groundhog Day, April Fools, the hobby horse, throwing rice at weddings, wedding rings, making loud noises on New Year’s Eve, and what about the days of the week and the months of the year named after pagan gods? Should we rename them?

Remember St. Paul told the Corinthians that they could eat meat sold in the public market though that meat may have been sacrificed to an idol (1 Cor. 10:25). He told them not to eat in the pagan temple. In other words, he told them to avoid blatant paganism, but they did not have to superstitiously avoid everything that paganism might have touched at some time in the past.

So Catholics make distinctions between paganism itself and pagan trappings, which can be adapted to give glory to the one, true God. In making such distinctions, we do not confuse the form with the substance. We do not confuse decency with sinfulness. We do not confuse what is harmful with what is good.

  • Westy

Thank you all of you who replied here. You are like a breath of fresh air. Very positive and speak from the heart. I needed that.

Charlie, my daughter and 8 others from our church are heading your way for World Youth Day as we speak. Please all pray for their safety, that all attending this wonderful event grow in their faith.
And Thanks Charlie for the links. Will check them out.

Nurtym (sorry, I can’t read the name I wrote down)
Interesting point about the New Testament. You are right.

Deconi, I like what you said about Constantine. I will check out the material you suggested.

In The Cloud. That is reassuring info.

Wisdomseeker, You are Wise!! That makes sense, Any good teacher when teaching, would work with what the student already understood and build on that when possible.

Thanks again and next time I will break down questions into smaller parts.

I am not sure if I will even try to respond to this article. I was participating in the non catholic forum because I did like the way they prayed and supported one another. But I did not know how much dislike they had for the Catholic religion. According to them, we are going to hell because they think Catholics don’t follow God the way the Bible says to and because they think we never read the Bible. Obviously they have never been to a Catholic mass we we read from the Bible three different times.

Nice, Westy. You are spot on!

We in the South Pacific have the ‘luxury’ of being able to attend Mass in several different languages and cultures at the same location; Maori, Samoan, Tongan, Indian, Fiji, Tahitian, Tuvaluean…etc, etc. Not to mention the subtle varieties of English services from U.K; British, Irish, French etc.

You are soo right about the amalgamation, for want of a better term, of the ‘paganistic’ practices into Christianity. For instance, in some Pacific Island cultures, they offered food to their god during pre-Christian time; they have to wear certain items of ‘cloaks’ whilst offering ‘sacrifices’ (some used to be human!) Some wear “lei” (Hawaiian floral necklace) to express joy in their existence and gratitude to their ‘gods.’

Some of these practices are now found during Mass of relevant culture.

The reason? As ‘they’ put it, before The Word arrived here in the Pacific, we were making our offerings to what had been passed on to us as ‘gods’ who remained unknown, mythical, spiritual and supernatural. In our languages we ‘knew’ our god made everything and sometimes we disagreed with our neighbours who claimed their god made everything! Now we have discovered that our similarities is because THE ONE TRUE GOD made everything and all of us, but our understandings differed from culture to culture.

We learned that our “pagan” worship practices were to shadows of what was to come. Through The Light that He is, we now see clearly, and disgard what is useless or erroneous from our practices, but retain the good and worthy because we have always, always, always, known about God, and finally, WE KNOW WHO HE IS AND WHAT HIS NAME IS !!

During Mass, itself the NEW FORM of the sacrificial rituals from the Old Testament, we see some cultures offering to God the ‘practices’ they had in eras past included in some way. This time though, the intentions are to the Identified Personage of Christ.

Sometimes, these services are beautiful; other times they prolong or ‘annoying,’ at least, I USED to find them so. But now I understand and appreciate them more and more.

Just as I learn to love it all, Protestanism rears!! :mad:

:cool:

Beautifully put, Deconi. :thumbsup:

  • Westy

Praise the Lord for this very informative site about our Catholic faith.

Because of all your responses and the other information given on this site, I did offer several rebuttal replies on that non christian website. I did it in a very loving but very factual way.

They finally admitted that the CAtholic faith was a full Christian church and apologized for offending me or any Catholics in anyway. Not that God’s church needs defending, but there is a lot of misinformation. about our faith that is very biased. I felt it important that the readers of that site had another point of view.

Your replies and this site gave me the tools to respond intelligently. It also made me research why Catholics believe what we do. I am going to take more of the suggested readings that were offered here and make some of them my summer time reading. (Or nite time reading if I need a sleeping aid) Thanks again, much love and all have a wonderful day. Praise be Jesus Christ.

I am sorry, I can’t remember your name who made this quote. Once feature that would be nice on this site is that we can see the reply we are posting to.

My husband and I attended a Catholic church in Lahaina, Maui. At the mass, they had the traditional Hawaiian choir, where they sang traditional Catholic hymns and also Hawaiian songs. They were dressed in their full Hawaiian traditional dress and used traditional Hawaiian instruments. It was a very beautiful service and both my husband and I felt very inspired and refreshed after that Mass. I would love to attend other Masses in the Pacific. They sound very beautiful.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

If we truely want to destroy this argument we need to find a way to disprove or explain the correlations they have drawn between The Church and these pagan practices.

Until you can prove that Mary is not simply a neo-Isis they are not going to care about the things we try to explain to them. They will claim simply to know ‘why’ Catholics ‘worship’ (common misconception) Mary and not see that we don’t, no matter how many times we explain it to them.

Know what I mean?

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