At what point would you break the law?

I was reading the posts about Texas and carrying a concealed weapon there legally.

But what if you lived in a high crime area, you were too poor to move, and carrying a gun legally was not available to you. Would you carry a gun illegally to protect yourself if you knew you could no longer count on the police to be there for you.

Since I live in an area where the police show up late, really don’t care about your problems, and just fill out reports while they count the days till they retire, I would be interested to know of how many people will “follow the rules” even if it leads them to their own death?

A gun’s only purpose is to kill something, not for me. I would sign up for some black belt karate.

If the perp has a firearm, be advised: you can’t karate-chop a .40-caliber bullet.

I’m curious by your question, do you live in an area where you cannot carry a gun legally? If you have the gun, why not just get the permits?

In the OP it said the situation was such that the person was poor. If someone is struggling to pay for food, shelter and heat then how would they come up with the money to pay for karate lessons?

I will answer that (the statute of limitations is long gone on my situation). When we were first married we lived in South Florida (read Dade county) crime and violence was and still is a daily thing that those that live there just take as normal. For my wedding gift from my husband I received not jewlery but a 380. When I went anywhere it was in my purse or car where I could easily reach it.and a state policeman even saw it (his comment was it was not standard equipment). I had to travel in bad parts of town that were gang controlled. The gun even went with me into the bank and when I had to park to wait for my husband it sat on the seat net to me (the windows were closed and the dog sat next to it).

So make up your own mind if I would or would not “follow” the rules.

When I first moved to Chicago (on the north side) in the first six months I looked out my window and saw a man being shot by an acquaintaince as he ran away. My neighborhood was known to outsiders as “the jungle”. I then inherited my father’s handgun. Did I carry it illegally?

Of course not.

The logical fallacy in all this is the leap from danger to carrying a handgun. That is not the only option. **When did life become a choice between carrying a gun and death? ** Your first means of protecting yourself is how you carry yourself. That could mean being with others, walking quickly, wearing your ‘game face’ or the like.

Next, for property crimes, a criminal wants money. Throw your wallet on the ground or in the air, blow your whistle and run. The criminal will then choose between you and possible capture and your money.

If you are being personally assaulted, fall on the ground, kick and scream and blow that whistle. After a few kicks you will be left alone.

Remember to assess the situation. Know what’s happening around you: A criminal will probably hurt you with his or her hands and will shift shoulders to get at a weapon. Look for these signs.

As to your residence, we have already discussed having a dog, which is also a good option for personal safety on the street. Have a deadlock and know who is at your door. Relatively few crimes are forced break-ins – the majority of crimes as to homes are stealthy burglaries when no one is believed to be at home. Leave your dog home with access to all of your house, not locked in a bathroom or the like.

I have an 83 year old friend who walks every day at about 5 am and to 8:30 Mass on Sundays. This is on the south side. He’s been at this for at least 25 years and I’m sure has been mugged along the way. And of course he does not carry a weapon.

What was mentioned above are all **last ditch **measures to protect yourself as advised by professionals and they are relatively benign. Just give up the money. You don’t have to shoot someone to be safe.

Q: Would I carry a gun illegally in an unsafe neighborhood?

A: No.

These methods, while very good and very helpful make some presumptions that are simply not always available. Some people MUST walk alone. Some people, like myself, suffer from diseases that prevent them from walking quickly or showing a game face that may appear at all times confident, etc. Some people are elderly and walk with a limp, or cane, or walker. Some people are small and frail. Some are big and frail.

What data do you have for this claim? In fact the woman’s group AWARE clearly opposes your claim and states that fighting back is the safest course of action. They claim:
[INDENT]***Women who fight back are injured less often, are more successful in stopping the attack, regardless of what kind of attack it is, and feel better about themselves afterwards.***[/indent]

Which law enforcement professionals suggest these methods?

In fact I’d refute any profession that would advocate such silly tactics. The Toronto Rape Crisis Center says this:
In general, the studies found that strategies such as crying, pleading or reasoning were ineffective. Some studies even indicate that these strategies can cause increased chance of injury.

Here is a whole page of studies about attacks (these are against women) that dispel myths about the passive defenses. They do not work. In fact they tend to do nothing. See here: trccmwar.ca/fight-back.html#myths

This is very true. In fact there is ample evidence to show that just showing that you are armed (wearing a gun openly, or holding it in your hand) will stop the vast majority of crimes BEFORE they are committed.

In fact the Law Enforcement Alliance of America website’s criminal avoidance page says this: Research shows that active resistance with a firearm is the most effective way to defend against a violent criminal attack. Some estimates indicate that over two million violent crimes a year are stopped when the law-abiding victim turns out to have a gun.

The other logical fallacy in the question is also something on which I can share my experience: I am much more likely to be stopped by the police than I am to be subject to personal assault in the street or in my home. Believe me, in walking the mean streets I have been grilled more often by police than I have been threatened by civilians. Carrying an illegal arm is much more likely to get me in trouble than it is to protect me, by the numbers. Your results may vary.

On the question of falling to the ground and kicking, that is a method suggested by professionals. It is foolish to engage in armed combat with someone you do not know. If you are in a street fight, the rules of engagement will not be according to the Marquis of Queensbury. And I can assure you, there are many folks meaner and tougher than you!

If a person has you backed up in a space – get close. Lock your arms around his and bite his nose off then knee him in the scrotum. Don’t move back and dance like you two are going to box.

Would I illegally carry a weapon? No.

Well right now where we live (not where we lived when first married) we have no local police. We are 45 miles from Pittsburgh PA, we have the turnpike and two major highways that cross and are magnets for the drug trade and great exits for those that have broken the law to get away fast. Persons from the city and the other small Pittsburgh Burbs will come out here and rob and create other situations (when ever we get the information on the perps the city of residence is not here).

The average time for an officer to get to us if we feel threatened is just under one hour. If the situation is robbery and drugs they might not get here for hours and sometimes one or two days.

So yes I would carry a gun even if I did not have a permit. But, thankfully it is easy to get one if you have no criminal background. So following the law is easier here then in the city.

Once again you are giving advice that really only applies to those people who are of a physical size and condition that can engage. What about those of us who are unable to engage in a fight and have any hope of achieving any sort of positive outcome? What about the elderly? What about those of slight build?

Again, please cite the source of this sage tid bit you have now repeated. I’ve not only refuted it, but provided links and quotes from professionals who indicate it is exactly the wrong thing to do. Are these ‘professionals’ you cite politicians/political appointees because the sources I can find refute it. At best, even if you can find sources, your advice is dubious and at worst it is downright dangerous.

I live about an hour away from Beau and response time here is roughly 45 minutes for an emergency. We’ve waited longer. Like you I live outside of a major city, we have no local police here either.

You know, you and I have a difference of opinion. And I specifically stated that folks should not get physical with strangers but gave instructions on how to deal with the situation in case someone is after your money or wants to cause you physical harm.

The point about screaming and flailing has been promoted by big-city police departments, like NYC. Just because you have other advice I would not put it that you have ‘refuted’ what I said: There are alternate methods of self-protection.

And few involve putting yourself at the risk of a felony offense.

Q: Would I prefer being charged with a felony instead of being on the receiving end of a righteous butt whipping and/or losing my wallet to a stranger?

A: No

It is better to have a gun and not need it than it is to need a gun and not have it.

I’ve learned that the police in my area don’t deter crime, they mearly keep statistics.

Beau, did I state my opinion as to whether I would break the law and carry illegally? No. In fact I did not. Did I offer my opinion on what to do? No. In fact I did not.

I simply reported, with citation, evidence that does refute the advice you wrote.

Now that you have stated that your advice came from NYC and other big city politically run police departments I have to ask, based on the crime rates in our largest cities, how is that advice working out for them :rolleyes:

How do you measure how many people have fought off muggings with those tactics?

Apparently the same way that you would measure the number of self defense uses of weapons where no shot was fired, and no person was injured.

But your question did not address the points/questions earlier in the thread.

You have not provided any evidence that those tactics work. Heck you have not even provided any evidence they are recommended.

On the other hand I’ve provided evidence they are bad ideas, backed it up with links to organizations that provide the evidence/studies/recommendations to the contrary.

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