Attention all Protestants and Catholics!


#1

With regards to verse Matthew 16:18 I hear a lot of what seems like;

Catholics: “Peter was the rock!”

Protestants: “No, it was Peter’s confession!”

However, truth be told it it both. The Catholic Church holds both of these views as a both/and (not an either/or.)

Here are a couple of paragraphs from the CCC:

**424 **Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9
"To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ"

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it… This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”

862 "Just as the office which the Lord confided to Peter alone, as first of the apostles, destined to be transmitted to his successors, is a permanent one, so also endures the office, which the apostles received, of shepherding the Church, a charge destined to be exercised without interruption by the sacred order of bishops."375 Hence the Church teaches that “the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ.”


#2

There’s just so much information in the Catechism, I suggest that if you do not have one, then get one! (Even if you are protestant.)

Here’s the “brief” -

866 The Church is one: she acknowledges one Lord, confesses one faith, is born of one Baptism, forms only one Body, is given life by the one Spirit, for the sake of one hope (cf Eph 4:3-5), at whose fulfillment all divisions will be overcome.

***867 *The Church is holy: the Most Holy God is her author; Christ, her bridegroom, gave himself up to make her holy; the Spirit of holiness gives her life. Since she still includes sinners, she is “the sinless one made up of sinners.” Her holiness shines in the saints; in Mary she is already all-holy.

868 The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is “missionary of her very nature” (AG 2).

869 The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: “the twelve apostles of the Lamb” ( Rev 21:14). She is indestructible (cf Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other apostles, who are present in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops.

870 “The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines”(LG 8).


#3

My fellow Catholics, pay special regard to paragraph 424:

**424 **Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9
"To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ"

Come on, show of hands who missed this one…? :wink:

Isn’t it great how rich and full of Truth the Bride of Christ is?! :slight_smile:


#4

And here’s a link to and online Catechism of the Catholic Church for anyone who can’t afford to buy the book - or if you just would like an online copy:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

“When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth…” (John 16:13)


#5

So, is the “CCC” a dogmatic set of truths that ust be believed by all?
Do I HAVE to believe that Peter’s confession is the rock of the Church? After all, any protestant, as you indicate, firmly believes that and it is part & parcel for their REASON for REJECTION of the Primacy of the See of Peter, and thus the entire Catholic edifice.
"for you are rock and on THIS rock I will build…"
Any english major can tell you what that means. Also a greek student.
Peter’s confession indicates that the Father has looked favorably upon Peter as to His Son’s choosing Peter as the Rock of the Church. That’s why He gives him a name only GOD and the founder (Abraham) of the OT Church had in the OT.
Abraham was the rock of the OT Church, Peter of the NT Church. Both in the absence of “God in the Flesh” among us.
The confessions of Abraham’s Faith and that of Peter were the causes of choosing them as the rock of the respective churches.** It was not the display of Faith itself.**
1 Corinthians 10:4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)
This was not the Faith of Christ, but the Person.
Is 51:1 Give ear to me, you that follow that which is just, and you that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence you are hewn, and to the hole of the pit from which you are dug out. 2 Look unto Abraham your father, and to Sara that bore you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and multiplied him.
Is Abraham called the rock or is the faith of him called the rock?
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be **called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.

**So, where is the faith or its confession,called Peter here?

The parallels are so striking between Rock Simon and Rock Abraham.
BTW: Abraham is called Father of the true Jews, and Peter, we as well call Father (papa, pope) of the NT Church.


#6

[quote=TNT]So, is the “CCC” a dogmatic set of truths that ust be believed by all?
[/quote]

Please read this. It may not be dogmatic, but you would do well to believe it.

[quote=TNT] Do I HAVE to believe that Peter’s confession is the rock of the Church?
[/quote]

Well, no, you don’t. All you have to believe is that Peter is the rock. Any subsequent interpretation is open.

God Bless,
RyanL


#7

Exactly. That’s always what Prots say–it was Peter’s confession of faith. Well how can someone’s confession of faith be given the keys to the Kingdom of heaven? Anyone can see these were given to someone in a position of authority. That being Peter.


#8

I don’t understand what the big deal is. From what I understand, lots of Catholics acknowledge double interpretations (both meanings, not either/or) for various scripture passages, as it deepens our understanding. Christ could have very well meant both at the same time, and it really wouldn’t hurt any of the arguments for the papacy.
By the way, Protestants believe Jesus is the Son of God. Does that mean that you’re going to reject it? Profound disagreement, a fervent desire to defend the Truth, a sadness at the abandonment of the fullness of the faith: these are things I understand. But I really don’t understand the high level of personal hostility that some people feel they need to display toward those they disagree with.


#9

[quote=E.E.N.S.]There’s just so much information in the Catechism, I suggest that if you do not have one, then get one! (Even if you are protestant.)

[/quote]

I read it & couldn’t contest it, plus it’s very comprehensive about the dogma of the CATHOLIC CHURCH

I came HOME:amen:


#10

[quote=Kristina P.]I don’t understand what the big deal is…But I really don’t understand the high level of personal hostility that some people feel they need to display toward those they disagree with.
[/quote]

What, exactly are you referring to as Personal Hostility in the previous posts?
BTW:
Even a few Church Fathers refer to Matt 16:18 as the faith of Peter, announced 2 complete verses before, but none deny that Peter is also the Rock referred to.
However, to emphasize what is only a distant implication and minimize the literal and obvious as many do in the Church, is wrong exegesis and opposed to the long standing Magisterium. The protestants did this over the centuries and threw out the obvious meaning in short order.
For us to begin the same process is cracking the Faith in order to please those outside The Church and opposed to Peter as the Rock referred to. We end up with “we told you so!” from the protestants, without any admission on their part that the obvious is the primary meaning.
Again, the Faith of Peter is the CAUSE for him being chosen as the rock, because the Father gave approval through Peter’s confession from revelation. Faith is not the Rock itself. Further, if it WAS revealed to Peter by God the Father (Matt 16:16-17) then really, how much Faith would be needed. In other words, if God the Father revealed something to you, how much faith would be needed to believe in that “something”?


#11

[quote=TNT]For us to begin the same process is cracking the Faith in order to please those outside The Church and opposed to Peter as the Rock referred to. We end up with “we told you so!” from the protestants, without any admission on their part that the obvious is the primary meaning.
[/quote]

We are not “beginning anything new”, I was simply stating that when protestants use their argument on this matter that it holds no weight as the Church acknowledges this (and has), but it doesn’t change the fact that Simon was renamed to Peter (rock) and that Christ built his Church upon him.


#12

[quote=E.E.N.S.]My fellow Catholics, pay special regard to paragraph 424:

**424 **Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9
"To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ"

Come on, show of hands who missed this one…? :wink:

Isn’t it great how rich and full of Truth the Bride of Christ is?! :slight_smile:
[/quote]

First of all, thank you for going to the source - the Catechism.

I have never understood why Protestants believe that if Peter’s rock was his faith why that would not mean he was made the head of the Church on earth. Someone always states something like “Any student of English or Greek can tell you…” or “Simple rules of grammar…”. Well, I have my degree in Rhetoric - using the word “this” does not mean that Peter’s faith is distinguishable from Peter HIMSELF…what a weird argument!


#13

[quote=TNT]What, exactly are you referring to as Personal Hostility in the previous posts?

[/quote]

The problem with using the internet, email etc is that one cannot hear the tone being used by the writer. I agree with Kristen, there has been overwhelming feelings of hostility in other posts - emphasis placed on certain words convey this - JPII emphasized doing everything from a position of Love. Jesus taught that love is greater than anything else. Peter, by his faith and his actions and his constant (apparent, from the Acts and other letters) search to be a better and stronger and more loving person is the perfect choice for a human protector of Jesus’ Bride. When I post, and I have blown it in the past with smarmy remarks and emphasis that makes me seem angry, I am trying to ask the Holy Spirit to guide every word. I think we all need to do that if this forum is to be effective.

Just a thought.


#14

[quote=LSK]First of all, thank you for going to the source - the Catechism.

I have never understood why Protestants believe that if Peter’s rock was his faith why that would not mean he was made the head of the Church on earth. Someone always states something like “Any student of English or Greek can tell you…” or “Simple rules of grammar…”. Well, I have my degree in Rhetoric - using the word “this” does not mean that Peter’s faith is distinguishable from Peter HIMSELF…what a weird argument!
[/quote]

And thank you as well!

I wanted to add these two important paragraphs as well - I would have done it yesterday, but it was the end of the day for me and I was running short on time, lol.

**552 **Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve; Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” Christ, the “living Stone”, thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.

**553 **Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: “Feed my sheep.” The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.


#15

Originally Posted by TNT
What, exactly are you referring to as Personal Hostility in the previous posts?

[quote=LSK]… I think we all need to do that if this forum is to be effective.

Just a thought.
[/quote]

So, where is the previous post that you are referring to in this thread?
That was the question you quoted.


#16

I also wanted to add commentary on Matt 16:18-19.

Matt 16:18:

Ver. 18. Greek: Kago. And I say to thee, and tell thee why I before declared, (John i. 42.) that thou shouldst be called Peter, for thou art constituted the rock upon which, as a foundation, I will build my Church, and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if they overturn its foundation, (i.e. thee and thy successors) they will overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore here promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to the end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors and princes. (Tirinus) — In the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus Christ spoke, there is no difference of genders, as there is in Latin, between patra, a rock, and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the allusion was both more natural and more simple. (Bible de Vence) –Thou art Peter;[2]* and upon this* (i.e. upon thee, according to the literal and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I will build my church. It is true St. Augustine, in one or two places, thus expounds these words, and upon this rock, (i.e. upon myself) or upon this rock, which Peter hath confessed: yet he owns that he had also given the other interpretation, by which Peter himself was the rock. Some Fathers have also expounded it, upon this faith, which Peter confessed; but then they take not faith, as separated from the person of Peter, but on Peter, as holding the true faith. No one questions but that Christ himself is the great foundation-stone, the chief corner-stone, as St. Paul tells the Ephesians; Chap. ii, ver. 20.) but it is also certain, that all the apostles may be called foundation-stones of the Church, as represented Apocalypse xxi. 14. In the mean time, St. Peter (called therefore Cephas, a rock) was the first and chief foundation-stone among the apostles, on whom Christ promised to build his Church. (Witham) — Thou art Peter, &c. As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ, so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz. that he, to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, (John i. 42.) should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be next to Christ himself, the chief foundation-stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven. — Upon this rock, &c. The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews, which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built; Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ by building his house, that is, his Church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder. (Matthew vii. 24, 25.) — The gates of hell, &c. That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself or his agents. For as the Church is here likened to a house, or fortress, the gates of which, i.e. the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or Church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the Church of Christ. (Challoner) — The gates, in the Oriental style, signify the powers; thus, to this day, we designate the Ottoman or Turkish empire by the Ottoman port. The princes were wont to hold their courts at the gates of the city. (Bible de Vence)


#17

…and verse 19:

Ver. 19. And I will give to thee the keys, &c. This is another metaphor, expressing the supreme power and prerogative of the prince of the apostles. The keys of a city, or of its gates, are presented or given to the person that hath the chief power. We also own a power of the keys, given to the other apostles, but with a subordination to St. Peter and to his successor, as head of the Catholic Church. — And whatsoever thou shalt bind, &c. All the apostles, and their successors, partake also of this power of binding and loosing, but with a due subordination to one head invested with the supreme power. (Witham) — Loose on earth. The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence: the power of which is here granted. (Challoner) — Although Peter and his successors are mortal, they are nevertheless endowed with heavenly power, says St. Chrysostom nor is the sentence of life and death passed by Peter to be attempted to be reversed, but what he declares is to be considered a divine answer from heaven, and what he decrees, a decree of God himself.* He that heareth you, heareth me,* &c. The power of binding is exercised, 1st. by refusing to absolve; 2d. by enjoining penance for sins forgiven; 3d. by excommunication, suspension or interdict; 4th. by making rules and laws for the government of the Church; 5th. by determining what is of faith by the judgments and definitions of the Church. (Tirinus) — The terms binding and loosing, are equivalent to opening and shutting, because formerly the Jews opened the fastenings of their doors by untying it, and they shut or secured their doors by tying or binding it. (Bible de Vence) — Dr. Whitby, a learned Protestant divine, thus expounds this and the preceding verse: “As a suitable return to thy confession, I say also to thee, that thou art by name Peter, i.e. a rock; and upon thee, who art this rock, I will build my making laws to govern my Church.” (Tom. i, p. 143.) Dr. Hammond, another Protestant divine, explains it in the same manner. And p. 92, he says: " What is here meant by the keys, is best understand by Isaias xxii. 22, where they signified ruling the whole family or house of the king: and this being by Christ accommodated to the Church, denotes the power of governing it."


#18

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