Authority of the Father over the Son


#1

I was listening to a protestant pastor’s sermon. He was trying to explain biblical authority of man over woman by comparing it to the trinity. He said that, though they are equal in dignity, the Father, even now in Heaven, has authority over the Son. Is this correct?


#2

[quote="Thomas_G, post:1, topic:335487"]
I was listening to a protestant pastor's sermon. He was trying to explain biblical authority of man over woman by comparing it to the trinity. He said that, though they are equal in dignity, the Father, even now in Heaven, has authority over the Son. Is this correct?

[/quote]

God does not have authority over God. Both God the Father and God the Son are fully God.

God does not have authority over God, and God does not have less or more authority over God. That would mean that one would be less God and one would be more God. Both God the Father and God the Son are fully God.

The Father does not have authority over the Son. The son however, has made himself to be a slave.

**But Jesus summoned them and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you. Rather, whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave. Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life* as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28)*

God the Father and God the Son are both God. God does not have authority over God, but God is love. God the Father loves God the Son perfect, revealing himself fully to the second person of the Trinity, giving him all of his love. God the Son loves God the Father perfectly, holding nothing back, making himself completely vulnerable.

John 17 tells us all of this, that the Second Person of the Trinity shared fully in God's glory before time began.

**Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began. *(John 17:5)*

Everything God the Father has, the Son has as well.

**I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours, and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them. (John 17:10)

"Everything" means everything, including authority. How can both have authority over each other.

Two people in love - husband and wife - don't have authority over each other, but should imitate Christ by saying, "Not my will, but thy will be done." They should put themself last, and the other first.

-Tim-


#3

There is a kind of order even within the Godhead. Even though the Father, Son and Spirit are co-equal and have a united will, somehow, the Father is the source from whom the Son is begotten and the Spirit proceeds.


#4

[quote="SonCatcher, post:3, topic:335487"]
There is a kind of order even within the Godhead. Even though the Father, Son and Spirit are co-equal and have a united will, somehow, the Father is the source from whom the Son is begotten and the Spirit proceeds.

[/quote]

I think that too, progression, sounds like what you're talking about; was inward. Not outward as Arias said. And I think that is what you're saying. It's IN the godhead.


#5

He was probably speaking of 1 corin 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God

Perhaps someone can explain that?


#6

[quote="dronald, post:5, topic:335487"]
He was probably speaking of 1 corin 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God

Perhaps someone can explain that?

[/quote]

Good call:thumbsup:


#7

Tim said it all!


#8

Christ, true God, said: “I go to my God and your God, to my Father and your Father”, and also said: “the Father is greater than I”.

This does not change the fact that Christ, God the Son, is true God from true God, one in substance with the Father. But the Son is begotten from the Father, His image, while the Father is unbegotten.

True :slight_smile:


#9

A few of thoughts:

1) Authority literally means authorship of. Since Jesus is "eternally" begotten of the Father, doesn't that mean as he himself says,,, that he and the Father are One? The name given is really to distinguish a power attributed to God alone, called Person of the Trinity?
2) The Unknown Day and Hour.* 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,* but the Father alone.

My question is: Under which of his names is he referring to himself, Son of Man or Son of God? The distinction to me is one of timing. Yet still, knowledge is really more mental or of the Spirit, so maybe the difference is moot. Just a few thoughts....


#10

From what I have understood of Catholic theology, Both God the Father and God the Son are equally God in being. God is not greater than God as someone was already mentioned. However, the Father is logically greater than the Son as the Son has an origin (an eternal one) while the Father does not; The Son actively comes into existence via the act of 'begetting'.

And does the christian scripture not teach that God the Son was subject to the authority of God the Father (both pre and post incarnation) ?


#11

Thanks for all these thought provoking responses to my question. Though I would so much like to completely agree with Tim’s original response, this preacher did in fact reference the 1 cor 11:3 passage. Is it that the incarnate Christ’s human nature would be refering to his Father in Heaven differently during his time on earth? I guess the main point would be that it’s a poor example to use to explain the proper relationship between husband and wife?


#12

Begotten does not equal subordinate.

We have to remember that the Bible is a Jewish document, and we have to understand Jewish family life and the relationship between fathers and sons in Jewish culture.

The only son or the firstborn son had the right of inheritance and became the authority, the head of the houshold, protector and authority figure for the whole family upon his father's passing or when his father decided the time was right. The Son recieved all of the father's authority. It was given to him when the time came.

**When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you, just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him. (John 17:1-2)

The Jews understanding of family life and the relationship between fathers and sons is how Jesus can call God "Father" and pray about authority over the family of God and be understood by the readers and hearers of the Gospels. Remember that the Jews lived under kings and that the Bible is a Jewish document. Jesus is a King. Authority was handed over to Jesus.

It really helps to read the explanation of the Trinity in Theology for Beginners by F.J Sheed.

bks6.books.google.com/books?id=WD3ZAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE71HJOPefScgn-e9LTcqq4m2GBzaf5MNEGyNaQo3IDpm1yZYbNb9NZyEGOihBKCfsRnQAYwPYvewJdSr7v_PlmQQk1K40HEWFsBRtzK1KVdFI_wL2j2fzoMlD1rICcmQ_mPWzFtI

-Tim-


#13

I don’t know anything about this pastor’s arguments but Paul explains the relationship between husband and wife clearly. Paul was a master of Jewish theoloy and an absolute master of the Old Testament scriptures. Paul is crystal clear.

*A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife. (1 Corinthians 7:4)

Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord. For just as woman came from man, so man is born of woman; but all things are from God. (1 Corinthians 11:11-12)

Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephesians 5:21)*

After saying that husbands and wifes should be subordinate to each other, these next verses are very interesting.

*Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. (Ephesians 5:22)

**Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her. *(Ephesians 5:25)

Some translations use defer to your husband instead of be subordinate. Either way, Paul instructs wives to prefer the will of their husbands to their own will, to imitate Christ by saying, “Not my will but thy will be done.” He goes much further with husbands, much much further, stating that they should be willing to die for their wives, as Christ died for the Church. Husbands should be willing to take a bullet for their wives!

It’s not about authority. It is about imitating Christ who said, “Not my will, but thy will be done.” Lording authority over each other is not the solution to a healthy marriage. The one who wishes to be first should put himself last.

-Tim-


#14

[quote="Thomas_G, post:1, topic:335487"]
I was listening to a protestant pastor's sermon. He was trying to explain biblical authority of man over woman by comparing it to the trinity. He said that, though they are equal in dignity, the Father, even now in Heaven, has authority over the Son. Is this correct?

[/quote]

As someone coming out of radical feminism, I really don't want to
touch the man/woman section, not smart enough to deal with that
yet, but I will address the Trinity issue.

There is a certain economy within the Trinity, where the Father is over the Son, and correct
me Catholics if I'm wrong, but I think also the Holy Spirit is under the Son. BUT(!), there is

only One God, who is Father Son & Holy Spirit, but if we read the New Testament, the way
the Father Son & Holy Spirit interact with one another clearly shows a certain hierarchy in
the One Being of God.

It's not that one is more powerful than the other, but each Person
of the Trinity plays a different role for the Salvation of Humanity.


#15

[quote="Thomas_G, post:11, topic:335487"]
Thanks for all these thought provoking responses to my question. Though I would so much like to completely agree with Tim's original response, this preacher did in fact reference the 1 cor 11:3 passage. Is it that the incarnate Christ's human nature would be refering to his Father in Heaven differently during his time on earth? I guess the main point would be that it's a poor example to use to explain the proper relationship between husband and wife?

[/quote]

It would be nice to hear from a traditional woman, who might shed light on the actual mindset of a wife from ExperIenCe, and not from imagining what it must be like...Do not we say as Catholics at mass that he was obedient unto death?


#16

**But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.* (1 Cor 11:3)*

Christ the head, died for man.

Man therefor, as the head of his wife, should be willing to die for her. He should put everything aside - every wish, every desire, every posession, and even his own life if asked - and live not for himself but for her.

Christ the head, died for his bride, the Church. He put everything at risk for her. Gave everything to her. Held nothing back so that she may be saved, presented spotless and pure to God.

Read Theology of the Body by Blessed John Paul II.

-Tim-


#17

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