Babies Being Baptized?


#1

IIn Matthew 3 it tells of John the Baptist int he wilderness preaching this message. Repent, turn from your sins, and turn to God. in 3;6 it says “And when they confessed their sins, he baptized them in the Jordan River.”

how can a baby possibly repent and turn its sins.Why are babies STILL to this day circumsized? How are we born again when we are baptized? When we are Born again we are born of the spirit. the Holy Spirit. Wow i need someone who is very knowledgable in the word, wise, and Spirit filled to talk with me. I really want to learn, especially if i have been wrong. My aim is liqwidstyx. my e mail is liqwidstyx@yahoo.com
thank you


#2

OT prefiguring of Baptism:

OT-- Baptism prefigured
Ezk 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Compare this to ACTS 2:37-38

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Here are all of the NT verses on the regenerative nature of baptism.

ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

ACTS 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

ACTS 19:1-7
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all.

ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

MATTHEW 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ;
and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead

EPHESIANS 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

cont. on next post


#3

cont. from prior post:

And now Infant Baptism

Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were being brought to him in order that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples spoke sternly to those who brought them; but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Luke 18:15-16
People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they sternly ordered them not to do it. But Jesus called for them and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (i.e.,baptism replaces circumcision and children were circumcised as infants)

Scripture describes entire households that were baptized such as those of the Roman jailer, Lydia, and Stephanes. Scripture does not indicate that children were not included.

In summary we see that baptism is regenerative in and of itself because that is the intention as seen in scripture. We even see that it is pre-figured in the OT. It is important to notice the connection between baptism and circumcision. Children/boys were circumcised within eight days of birth. Circumcision brought them into the OT covenant. Baptism brings us into the NT covenant. Unlike John’s baptism, which was only a baptism of forgiveness, Christian baptism brings with it the Holy Spirit. Since infants have only original sin and not personal sin, they do not need to confess. Baptism is the sacrament of faith. Since faith is a free gift of God, baptism can be given to an infant as part of God’s free gift. The infant in no way earns this great gift.


#4

Anonymous_1,

If you wish to dialogue by email further on this, I’m open to doing so. Just send me a private message. In the meantime, I have to sign off for awhile.

Pax


#5

Arent most of these refering to Baptism in the Holy Spirit? John said in Matthew 3;11
"I baptize with water those who turn from their sins and turn to God." So Johns baptism was a water baptism. ok then he goes on to say "But someone is comming soon who is far greater than I am-so much greater that i am not even worthy to untie his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
notice…when the Holy Spirit came upon the believers on the day of Pentecost it appeared as toungues of fire. I mean fire purifies. In Isaiah 1;25 "I will turn against you. I will melt you down and skim off the slag. I will remove all of your impurities."
This i think has multiple implications

like maybe its just me,but it seems very apparent that we are cleansed of our sins when we are Baptized in Spirit and Fire. Not water.

The circumcision of Christ is a circumcision of the heart performed byt he Holy Spirit.

like hoenstly i dont want to argue i want to grow in faith and love and truth. But we need to recognize our need for a new heart(that like our way dosent work) before we can turn to God in repentence. Why dosent the bible speak at all of babies being baptized. Only grown men. Am i wrong or what?


#6

When an infant in the Catholic faith is baptized his parents speak for him at the Baptism. When the child becomes old enough to speak for himself he is confirmed (not re-Baptized) in the Catholic faith in the Sacrament of Confirmation. Hope that helps


#7

and as for the little children comming to Christ. AWESOME…SIMPLY AWESOME. But you need to look at that verse in context witht he rest of it. in Matthew 19;13 it is written

“Some children were brought to Jesus so he could lay his hands on them and pray for them. The discliples told them not to bother him. But Jesus said " Let the children come to me. Dont stop them! For the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these.”

so he says for the kingdom of heaven belongs to SUCH AS THESE. Meaning a similie is being made here. This is just how i see this, and i could be wrong but i believe well God is our Father, and he is like sovereign, he is Lord. We need to come to him like children, humble, counting on him. If he were talking about childrne none of us over what 13 would ever get into heaven. We have to be as childrne. Humble, trusting, depending. As a child depends on his parents to survive we need to depend on God.

Maybe i am completley off aboutt his baptism stuff that is why i post this, maybe i just dont understand it right.


#8

I dont think that baptizing babies makes God angry or anything. Or that its a sin. But what effects does a water baptism have on your Spirit?

like i said i could be completley wrong. I just hope i am corrected if I am.


#9

The baptism of John the Baptist was a baptism of repentance, to prepare the way for Jesus.

The Baptism of the Church is a Baptism of water and the spirit, resulting in regeneration of the soul. Jesus told his Apostles to make disciples of all nations through Baptism:

“Full authority has been given to me, both in heaven and on earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28:18-19)
In the course of their preaching, the apostles brought entire families into the Church. In doing so, they did not withhold Baptism from infants or children.

(Likewise, in the Old Testament, God did not withhold the covenant from the youngest members of Israel until they were old enough to understand the Passover.)

JimG


#10

For a complete discussion of infant baptism, see:
catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp

JimG


#11

Baptism is more than just a public declaration and decision to follow Christ. Through baptism, God removes original sin from a person’s soul. It is a miracle. We are adopted into God’s family in baptism. You must then as you get older choose to follow God or walk away from your family, but you don’t have to be an adult to be adopted into the family of God.There are verses in the Bible that refer to whole households being baptized. Act 16:15, Acts 16:33 and 1 Cor 1:16. Did the households include children? It does not say. But there are records from early church fathers that address this issue specifically.

St. Hippolytus of Rome in 215 AD said "Baptize first the children; and if they can speak for themselves, let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them." *The Apostolic Tradition 21 *

There are others but right now my little blessing needs me. Go to our host you can easily find the other early writings on it.

It has always been understood by the Apostles and taught implicitly in Scripture and explicitly in Sacred Tradition that infants should be baptized. If you choose to disagree with infant baptism you are are ignoring over 2000 years of Christian Tradition.


#12

[quote=Anonymous_1]and as for the little children comming to Christ. AWESOME…SIMPLY AWESOME. But you need to look at that verse in context witht he rest of it. in Matthew 19;13 it is written

“Some children were brought to Jesus so he could lay his hands on them and pray for them. The discliples told them not to bother him. But Jesus said " Let the children come to me. Dont stop them! For the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these.”

so he says for the kingdom of heaven belongs to SUCH AS THESE. Meaning a similie is being made here. This is just how i see this, and i could be wrong but i believe well God is our Father, and he is like sovereign, he is Lord. We need to come to him like children, humble, counting on him. If he were talking about childrne none of us over what 13 would ever get into heaven. We have to be as childrne. Humble, trusting, depending. As a child depends on his parents to survive we need to depend on God.

Maybe i am completley off aboutt his baptism stuff that is why i post this, maybe i just dont understand it right.
[/quote]

The richness and depth of scripture often includes more than one message in the same verse or verses. You are certainly right to see the connection of trust and dependence that we must have in God. Please note, however, that Jesus wants the children to come to him, and sternly warns the apostles about stopping them.


#13

Correct me if I’m wrong.

Babies NEED to be baptized according to Protestants even if they don’t realize it, which most don’t because they don’t do it.

Protestants like to point out that in the verses claiming that all have sinned and fallen short the glory of God to refute the Immaculate Conception.

In doing so they must admit that EVERY person EVER born is a sinner, even before babies have the chance to actually sin. Since Baptism is needed to wash away sins according to them, so by not baptizing babies they are essentially sending them to hell. The only way you can have the verses “All have sinned” and “Suffer the children come unto me (or however it goes)” is to uphold infant baptism.

This also includes the parts in Acts where entire households were baptized with out scripture pointing out ages of those being baptized.
Just something that I was thinking about while reading Protestant stuff on the Immaculate Conception.


#14

Hi Anonymous_1. Here is an article I have.

Certainly, one of the chief Scriptures which cites *household *and is referred to by paedobaptism proponents is the following one:

He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family (Acts 16:30-34).

The advocates of infant baptism see this as Scriptural proof for their practice, but is it really that or nothing more than a **mere assumption **based on the word household? Such people **assume the Philippian jailer must have had infants in his family, but there is absolutely no proof of this. Perhaps, his children were all grown and married or maybe he had only one child 10 years of age. We cannot be sure of any details. But this we do know, the ones that were newly water baptized came to a saving faith in Jesus Christ, **v.34, **which agrees with the Lord’s standard criteria for one to receive Christian baptism (Mt. 28:18-20). **Therefore, it is impossible for the Philippian jailer to have had infants in his household, since they can’t repent and place their faith in Jesus.

Notice another time *household *is cited, which the proponents of infant baptism will probably never volunteer:

Then the father realized that this was the exact time at which Jesus had said to him, “Your son will live.” So he and all his household believed (John 4:53).

Clearly, everyone in that man’s *household *was old enough to have a personal faith in Jesus, which is needed for salvation. Why then couldn’t it be the same way for the Philippian jailer, even apart from Acts 16:34? Moreover, couldn’t the same be said about the following household:

Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and **his entire household believed **in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized (Acts 18:8).

[font=Arial][size=2]The *entire household *of Crispus was old enough to believe in the Lord. It was after this act of faith that they were water baptized. [/size][/font]


#15

Cornelius

This is the same truth conveyed elsewhere with the conversion of Cornelius and his household:

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days (Acts 10:43-48).

The same ones who received forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit were the ones who heard Peter’s salvation message and placed their faith in Jesus, which again, an infant cannot do. Also, Acts 10:2 states that these same new Christians feared God, which is also impossible for an infant to do. When Peter recapped what happened in Acts 10 in chapter 11, he stated that Cornelius was informed the following by the angel before he was sent for:

He [Peter] will bring you a message through which you and all your **household **will be saved (Acts 11:14).

So, Peter would bring a verbal message (see Acts 10:43) by which Cornelius and all in his *household *would: 1) Be saved before and without water baptism, 2) Be able to have faith in Jesus for salvation and 3) That included *repentance *on their part (Acts 11:18). Again, *infants *are excluded from this usage of *household *based on these.

Stephanus

Next we come to the household of Stephanas, whom Paul baptized:

Yes, I also baptized the **household **of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else (1 Cor 1:16).

Later in this epistle Paul referred to these same people again:

You know that the **household **of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints. I urge you, brothers, to submit to such as these and to everyone who joins in the work, and labors at it (1 Cor 16:15,16).

Those included among the household of Stephanas devoted themselves to the service of the saints. Again, with Scripture supplementing Scripture, that is not something an *infant *can do.

Mt. 19:13-15

Another Scripture misused for infant baptism is Mt. 19:13-15:

Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

There is no reference here that the little children (infants) were baptized. The children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them.


#16

Paul calls baptism the new circumcision. “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11) Since the only adults that were circumcised were adults that converted from paganism to Judaism, this is a perfect place to understand the nature and relevance of infant baptism. Jewish babies were all circumcised on the 8th day after birth. Similarly, When one or both adults in a household converted to Christianity, all of the hoursehold has baptised, even children. Jesus Himself says, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 19:14)


#17

[quote=Apologia100]Jewish babies were all circumcised on the 8th day after birth.)
[/quote]

Not all of them - think about it. :slight_smile:

[quote=Apologia100]Similarly, When one or both adults in a household converted to Christianity, all of the hoursehold has baptised, even children)
[/quote]

Even if they didn’t want to be?


#18

St. Hippolytus of Rome in 215 AD said "Baptize first the children; and if they can speak for themselves, let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them." *The Apostolic Tradition 21 *

If the child can speak for themselves, they could choose to not be baptized. But infants cannot speak for themselves.

posted by cabaret
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apologia100
Jewish babies were all circumcised on the 8th day after birth.)

Not all of them - think about it. :slight_smile:

Thank goodness! Long live uncircumsized baby girls!


#19

The significance of John the Baptist preaching a Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, was that adults who converted to Judaism were Baptized then circumcised. Then they began following the law and making sacrifices to get forgiveness. John preached a Baptism for forgiveness. That is also preached in Acts, as someone pointed out earlier. Paul says, “For all have sined and fall short of the Glory of God.” It stands to reason that if all have sinned, all need to be forgiven. Paul doesn’t appear to make exception for babies. They wouldn’t have the same kind of sin or consequences as you or I, but they apparently are born with sin. Following that logic, they would need to have their sins forgive, thus they are Baptized. Verses can be thrown about to try to prove or disprove anything, but if you read the New Testament as a whole, you’ll be able see the logic in what the Catholic Church teaches.


#20

[quote=Anonymous_1]I dont think that baptizing babies makes God angry or anything. Or that its a sin. But what effects does a water baptism have on your Spirit?

like i said i could be completley wrong. I just hope i am corrected if I am.
[/quote]

JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I think this is pretty clear but I have never had trouble understanding Baptism…

What is *your *definition of Baptism? Do you see Baptism in the Holy Spirit and a water Baptism separate? They are one in the same… a valid Baptism is done with water in the name of the trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One God in three persons. People Baptized by John the Baptist before Jesus Christ were Baptized in a ministry of forgiveness… When Jesus was Baptized it began Baptism as a Sacrament in which Sacramental Grace is given… the person *is *Baptised in water and the Spirit at the same time in the Sacrament of Baptism. There is one Baptism for the forgiveness of both origional and actual sin… The ministry of Confession is to be used after Baptism for the forgiveness of sin. Babies are not capable of anything but origional sin, we are all guilty of origional sin…including those who are mentally retarded. We can only be forgiven of Origional sin through Baptism… but by your definition only those of a mind capable of confessing are able to be saved because they should not be Baptized? Are they not worthy of entering the Kingdom… since Scripture clearly states that unless one is born of water and spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Before Christ, the use of blessings with water, including Baptism was only a symbol, it had no saving qualities, When Christ was Baptized the Holy Spirit rested upon him, it ushered in the *Sacrament of Baptism *Read about his Baptism and you will see how different Baptism became for Christ, The Holy Spirit came as a dove and the Father spoke to Him and for Christians after Christ, Heaven was opened up to sinners by the Sacrifice Jesus would endure in the Crucifixion.

What does Baptism do for our spirit? Read about Baptism in Collosians in Colossians.(I won’t quote teh whole thing here) When a person is Baptized their sin is washed away. They become a new creation, the Holy Spirit dwells in them as they enter the covenant with God… They begin a new life as a Christian which is to live with a new supernatural outlook on life In Colossians 2:12-20, St. Paul reminds them they "have to put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowlede after the image of its’screator (Col.3:10) This new nature give us supernatural direction in our lives
In Baptism our old nature dies but we put on the new nature, empowered with the gifts of Christ’s Grace and the Holy Spirit. We have the grace we need to be capable to live as sons and daughters of God the Father, in imitationof the eternal Son,Jesus Christ.


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