Bad Liturgy--Ever actually gotten an abuse fixed?

Boy, can we whine or what! :smiley:

A whole lotta stories and a whole lotta advice about liturgical abuse goes on in this forum. I’m a good whiner; but I’m no good at fixing things.

Yeah, I’ve talked to the priest as a concerned parishoner should–no luck. They don’t care what canon law or the rubrics say–they’re gonna do it how they wanna do it.

After the 2nd or 3rd time you speak up, the front office gets to know you as the gadfly–then they write you off before you even open your mouth!

I’ve learned to just shut up. (I live in Phoenix where we have the option to choose from more than a dozen good parishes, including Latin Rite, so it doesn’t bother me *that * much).

My question is this:

Has anyone here–personally,1st hand, ever gotten an abuse fixed by the advice given here?

examples of advice given:

ask the musicians to turn down their amps
talk to the priest
talk to the liturgy commitee
write a letter to your Bishop
quote canon law
know the rubrics
letter to the Vatican

Have you personally (no “I heard about this” or “this is what we should do” stories) ever made a change for the better?

How?

Did you have “pull”? (Were you a member of the Parish Council, for example).

Are you a good “office politics” person?

Thankyou for any response, yea or nay, to these questions.

The people in this forum are great! Intelligent, experienced and willing to share.

Yes. Many years ago…a dear old lady had been receiving Communion while kneeling for many years. Our pastor allowed her to do this and no one in the parish ever complained. When our new pastor arrived, the first Sunday he refused to give her Communion while she was kneeling. In fact, he screamed at her to get up.

I wrote a letter to our then-bishop, who was a notorious liberal. Within days, I had a letter from the Diocesan Chancellor, who informed me that the priest was wrong. The next day, I received a letter from the pastor admitting his error and he also apologized in the bulletin and at next Sunday’s Mass.

Should I have approached the priest first? You bet. Would I do it differently today? Absolutely.

But it worked. :cool:

[quote=Dr. Bombay]Yes. Many years ago…a dear old lady had been receiving Communion while kneeling for many years. Our pastor allowed her to do this and no one in the parish ever complained. When our new pastor arrived, the first Sunday he refused to give her Communion while she was kneeling. In fact, he screamed at her to get up.

I wrote a letter to our then-bishop, who was a notorious liberal. Within days, I had a letter from the Diocesan Chancellor, who informed me that the priest was wrong. The next day, I received a letter from the pastor admitting his error and he also apologized in the bulletin and at next Sunday’s Mass.

Should I have approached the priest first? You bet. Would I do it differently today? Absolutely.

But it worked. :cool:
[/quote]

You are a better Christian than me Doc. I have A fondness for old people (I plan on growing up to be one :slight_smile: ) If I would have seen A priest shame an old person like that. I would have met him after mass. (and not to for coffee) If you know what I mean :frowning:

[quote=QUICUMQUE VULT]You are a better Christian than me Doc. I have A fondness for old people (I plan on growing up to be one :slight_smile: ) If I would have seen A priest shame an old person like that. I would have met him after mass. (and not to for coffee) If you know what I mean :frowning:
[/quote]

Hitting a Priest would be sacrilage because of disrespect towards an annointed minister (so said a Doctor of Canon Law:D). Publicly degrading him would be most coarse and tasteless (according to St. Jose Maria Escriva)…best option would be to pull him aside and pray for him. I suppose there would be limits. But I’m just a kid :smiley:

At one of the parishes here in Las Vegas, years ago, my first visit there, the deacon at the end of Mass (totally abuse free, btw) and before the blessing, asked if there were any visitors. A handful of people raised their hand and he asked each one where they were from. “Cedar Rapids,” says one. “Cedar Rapids!” says the deacon (applause, applause from the congregation). “Altoona.” says another. “Altoona!” says the deacon (applause, applause from the congregation. This went on until he’d covered the visitors (some dropped their hands when they realized what was going on). Afterwards, I went up to the Deacon and asked how that was in any way in keeping with offering of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. He replied,“Too bad! We like it and we’re going to keep doing it.” I’ve been to the parish on a number of occasions since then, years latter, and it hasn’t repeated itself, so “too bad, we like it and we’re going to keep doing it” doesn’t always wash.

I remember before Mass one time an EMHC (actually a “captain” or head EMHC) walked across the sanctuary to the tabernacle to “check the ciborium level.”

After she did so, she walked away (I was one of the few people in the church at the time) leaving the door open with the key in the lock! I walked over, locked the door and headed to the sacristy to find her.

When I did I SLAMMED the key down on the counter and grunted NEVER AGAIN!

The pastor told me a few weeks later that she complained. I replied “YEAH, AND?!” and he changed the subject…

[quote=scriabin]Boy, can we whine or what! :smiley:

A whole lotta stories and a whole lotta advice about liturgical abuse goes on in this forum. I’m a good whiner; but I’m no good at fixing things.

Yeah, I’ve talked to the priest as a concerned parishoner should–no luck. They don’t care what canon law or the rubrics say–they’re gonna do it how they wanna do it.

After the 2nd or 3rd time you speak up, the front office gets to know you as the gadfly–then they write you off before you even open your mouth!

I’ve learned to just shut up. (I live in Phoenix where we have the option to choose from more than a dozen good parishes, including Latin Rite, so it doesn’t bother me *that * much).

My question is this:

Has anyone here–personally,1st hand, ever gotten an abuse fixed by the advice given here?

examples of advice given:

ask the musicians to turn down their amps
talk to the priest
talk to the liturgy commitee
write a letter to your Bishop
quote canon law
know the rubrics
letter to the Vatican

Have you personally (no “I heard about this” or “this is what we should do” stories) ever made a change for the better?

How?

Did you have “pull”? (Were you a member of the Parish Council, for example).

Are you a good “office politics” person?

Thankyou for any response, yea or nay, to these questions.

The people in this forum are great! Intelligent, experienced and willing to share.
[/quote]

Good Lord your posting RESONATES with me! I have to agree with your comments. Our paid staff is garbage by and large. Whenever threatened by improvements (or suggestions) they circle their wagons.

Now that we no longer have a pastor our current lay administrator is trying hard to improve things BEFORE the next pastor arrives in August/September. Based on his actions so far I think there might be a real chance for some reform…

[quote=scriabin]Boy, can we whine or what! :smiley:

A whole lotta stories and a whole lotta advice about liturgical abuse goes on in this forum. I’m a good whiner; but I’m no good at fixing things.

Yeah, I’ve talked to the priest as a concerned parishoner should–no luck. They don’t care what canon law or the rubrics say–they’re gonna do it how they wanna do it.

After the 2nd or 3rd time you speak up, the front office gets to know you as the gadfly–then they write you off before you even open your mouth!

I’ve learned to just shut up. (I live in Phoenix where we have the option to choose from more than a dozen good parishes, including Latin Rite, so it doesn’t bother me *that * much).

My question is this:

Has anyone here–personally,1st hand, ever gotten an abuse fixed by the advice given here?

examples of advice given:

ask the musicians to turn down their amps
talk to the priest
talk to the liturgy commitee
write a letter to your Bishop
quote canon law
know the rubrics
letter to the Vatican

Have you personally (no “I heard about this” or “this is what we should do” stories) ever made a change for the better?

How?

Did you have “pull”? (Were you a member of the Parish Council, for example).

Are you a good “office politics” person?

Thankyou for any response, yea or nay, to these questions.

The people in this forum are great! Intelligent, experienced and willing to share.
[/quote]

Yes! Our parish routinely gives Communion under both kinds, and a couple of years ago there was quite a large minority of people who would “dunk” or self-intinct the Host in the chalice. None of the Communion ministers, or even the priest, had the guts to tell them “don’t do that”.

I wrote a polite and comprehensive letter to the parish priest and the liturgy committee, pointing out that self-intinction is not allowed by the Church’s rules, and that contrary to the apparently popular belief, it is also less, not more, hygienic than drinking from the chalice. I provided references to documents and articles supporting my arguments.

The priest then said he realised I was right and he basically reproduced my points in the parish bulletin for several weeks, as well as reminding people orally several times that this is not acceptable, and instructing the ministers of the chalice to, if a communicant attempts to “dip” the Host, withdraw the chalice and ask them to eat the Host first.

I don’t have any special “pull” except that I’m fairly active in the parish and I have expertise in the health area.

I think to change things you see which are wrong you need to:

  1. Always be polite, but persistent.
  2. Pick the right time.
  3. Pick the right issues. If you constantly complain about every trivial thing, people will ignore you when you complain about a MAJOR issue that REALLY concerns you.
  4. Always be charitable. Assume that people are acting from noble motives until proven otherwise.
  5. Always be ready to provide written evidence to support your position. But don’t dump it all on people first off to try to bulldoze them. They may only need a little push. They might realise that the wrong thing is happening and want to correct it, but they fear that they might get more criticism than support if they try to.

Yes I have. Our new priest omitted the Gloria on Sunday and he was pouring the Blood of Christ into chalices from a pitcher. I wrote him a letter and both abuses were gone the next Sunday. Yes I was surprised but I have since gotten to know him and he is really a good priest. Since it was done through letters and we have never discussed it in person, I have no idea of why he did it in the first place. :confused:

We’ve had luck getting a whole diocese fixed. It’s not perfect yet but it’s soooooooooooooo much better it’s unbelievable. I’m sure the good bishop will be tweaking for many years to come. Just to let you know, our new bishop really likes to see proof. He doesn’t like to operate on hearsay. The methods we used with Rome could be just as effective with the individual bishops. Here’s a repost of our story here. Sorry for those who have seen it.

Our bishop was of retirement age. Our diocese was very abuse ridden. We launched a final campaign to lobby for an orthodox replacement. We launched a website and some in our group gathered up all of the documentation and examples of abuses over the years (actually, a lot of it was recent since we were always being expose to it) and burned it onto a multi-media CD. It had video of clown masses, awful diocesan letters, letters to us from our Bishop, etc., etc., etc. They sent it off to many offices in Rome including the Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger’s office, Congragation of Bishops, etc., the Papal Nuncio. A few months later we were assigned a GREAT bishop. We wondered for a few months if anything we did helped and then Cardinal Ratzinger called a priest friend of ours to his office and asked him if he knew the people who were lobbying for an orthodox replacement. He vouched for us and Cardinal Ratzinger told him to tell us that the CD was the biggest thing to ever hit Rome and that everyone (presumably even the Pope) had seen it and it had been passed around. He also said we should spread this method to others. We had another independent confirmation of the success of the CD when one of us was vacationing in Rome. They ran into a friend who had a priest from the Congregation of Bishops with him. They were introduced as being from our diocese and the first words out of this priests mouth were “Are you the ones who put together that CD?” He said it was very helpful to see first hand what was happening in our diocese. If anyone else would like more info, please PM me.

[quote=bear06]We’ve had luck getting a whole diocese fixed. It’s not perfect yet but it’s soooooooooooooo much better it’s unbelievable. I’m sure the good bishop will be tweaking for many years to come. Just to let you know, our new bishop really likes to see proof. He doesn’t like to operate on hearsay. The methods we used with Rome could be just as effective with the individual bishops. Here’s a repost of our story here. Sorry for those who have seen it.

Our bishop was of retirement age. Our diocese was very abuse ridden. We launched a final campaign to lobby for an orthodox replacement. We launched a website and some in our group gathered up all of the documentation and examples of abuses over the years (actually, a lot of it was recent since we were always being expose to it) and burned it onto a multi-media CD. It had video of clown masses, awful diocesan letters, letters to us from our Bishop, etc., etc., etc. They sent it off to many offices in Rome including the Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger’s office, Congragation of Bishops, etc., the Papal Nuncio. A few months later we were assigned a GREAT bishop. We wondered for a few months if anything we did helped and then Cardinal Ratzinger called a priest friend of ours to his office and asked him if he knew the people who were lobbying for an orthodox replacement. He vouched for us and Cardinal Ratzinger told him to tell us that the CD was the biggest thing to ever hit Rome and that everyone (presumably even the Pope) had seen it and it had been passed around. He also said we should spread this method to others. We had another independent confirmation of the success of the CD when one of us was vacationing in Rome. They ran into a friend who had a priest from the Congregation of Bishops with him. They were introduced as being from our diocese and the first words out of this priests mouth were “Are you the ones who put together that CD?” He said it was very helpful to see first hand what was happening in our diocese. If anyone else would like more info, please PM me.
[/quote]

I love your style!

Wow!!! I’m going to share this with others!!! Good job.

Yes a man in our parish wrote to the bishop about brown bread that was being made by some ladies in the parish and then used at mass.
Problem was bread contained honey and other additives, rendering it an invalid substance. People who chose to receive this bread were infact just receiving bread. Bishop corrected abuse on his next visit to parish.

Yes. We had a priest in our parish who introduced several abuses into the Mass, including leaving the sanctuary to hold hands across the aisle for the Our Father, changing some of the words of the prayers in the Mass, and others. My dh & I approached the priest with no change, then the pastor, who told us that the GIRM had “wiggle room!”, and then wrote to the Bishop. This over about a year because we didn’t want to act impulsively. Meanwhile we got a new pastor. The Bishop acted very quickly, and the priest was called into the Chancery. He stopped the abusive practices, after he announced to the congregation that someone had written to the Bishop to complain about him! Later, at his request, he was transferred.

Peace!
Linda

When the new Girm came in, the diocese had a meeting which certainly give a reasonable person the impression that it was just a suggestion. I prepared a list of twenty things that we needed to change or implement, along with suggested ways of implementing the changes. I offered to assist with the education process including meeting with servers, lectors, extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, and ushers. I helped explain things to the lay ministers as well as to the parishioners. The pastor seemed quite relieved that the whole burden was not on him. Everything was corrected and/or implemented in a few weeks. We still suffer from some dreadful music.

Always be sure to discern whether the abuse was a one time event or ongoing. Even we who try to do it right can make a mistake. Often we notice afterwards and make a mental note. Concentrate on habitual mistakes not the occasional senior moment of an otherwise good priest.

Yes, though it was minor thing. When RS came out, we had just started using some ceraminc chalises that were donated. I asked the priest one day about it during a conversation and he said he had just read RS and noticed it too. It took two or three months and he bought new metal chalices.

Yes I have. Our old parish priest moved the Tabernacle to the Back wall when you come in the Church. I talked with him and showed him several documents giving him no legitimate reason to keep it there. I was able to bring the Tabernacle back to the Center front and personally made a Altar for it to sit on!!!

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