Baptism and children murdered by abortion


#1

Since the waters of baptism are not on their own inherently special but rather used by God as the means to regenerate souls, and God can use whatever means he pleases to regenerate souls may God have regenerated children murdered by abortion by some other means and saved them, being that they would have never had a chance to get baptized?


#2

It is possible that God saves unbaptized infants.


#3

Certainly. The Holy Innocents are considered martyrs of the Church and they weren’t Baptized.


#4

I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you His forgiveness and His peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord. With the friendly and expert help and advice of other people, and as a result of your own painful experience, you can be among the most eloquent defenders of everyone's right to life. Through your commitment to life, whether by accept- ing the birth of other children or by welcoming and caring for those most in need of someone to be close to them, you will become promoters of a new way of looking at human life. PJP II

I trust in the Lord that my Grace Anne is in Heaven where she intercedes on my behalf.


#5

[quote="Allegra, post:3, topic:317078"]
Certainly. The Holy Innocents are considered martyrs of the Church and they weren't Baptized.

[/quote]

That's a bit of a Red herring since they lived before the institution of baptism as being necessary for salvation and were killed in place of Christ.


#6

[quote="devoutchristian, post:5, topic:317078"]
That's a bit of a Red herring since they lived before the institution of baptism as being necessary for salvation and were killed in place of Christ.

[/quote]

What was neccessary for salvation before Christ's ressurection?


#7

[quote="devoutchristian, post:5, topic:317078"]
That's a bit of a Red herring since they lived before the institution of baptism as being necessary for salvation and were killed in place of Christ.

[/quote]

Also, they were murdered after birth, not before.


#8

[quote="Allegra, post:6, topic:317078"]
What was neccessary for salvation before Christ's ressurection?

[/quote]

Avoidance of mortal sin. Original sin for those who died before the atonement would be removed at that time. To be clear, I believe that unbaptized infants go to Heaven, however the economy of salvation was different before the atonement.


#9

[quote="ForGood, post:4, topic:317078"]
I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you His forgiveness and His peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord. With the friendly and expert help and advice of other people, and as a result of your own painful experience, you can be among the most eloquent defenders of everyone's right to life. Through your commitment to life, whether by accept- ing the birth of other children or by welcoming and caring for those most in need of someone to be close to them, you will become promoters of a new way of looking at human life. PJP II

I trust in the Lord that my Grace Anne is in Heaven where she intercedes on my behalf.

[/quote]

Amen!Since the Pope is infallible re manners of faith and morals I believe this too,this is my hope for my baby Anne Catherine and all babies lost to abortion.


#10

[quote="Allegra, post:6, topic:317078"]
What was neccessary for salvation before Christ's ressurection?

[/quote]

Did women HAVE abortions before Christ's resurrection?????

I think it absolutely impossible that a loving and merciful God would allow the soul of an innocent not yet born to go anywhere but back to Him. Just unthinkable.


#11

[quote="ellzeena, post:10, topic:317078"]
Did women HAVE abortions before Christ's resurrection?????

I think it absolutely impossible that a loving and merciful God would allow the soul of an innocent not yet born to go anywhere but back to Him. Just unthinkable.

[/quote]

Sort of. Women would try to take potions and poisons and kill their babies that way. I'm sure the "falling down the stairs" method goes way back as well.


#12

[quote="Jeanne_S, post:9, topic:317078"]
Amen!Since the Pope is infallible re manners of faith and morals I believe this too,this is my hope for my baby Anne Catherine and all babies lost to abortion.

[/quote]

The Pope's every word is not infallible.

[quote="ellzeena, post:10, topic:317078"]
I think it absolutely impossible that a loving and merciful God would allow the soul of an innocent not yet born to go anywhere but back to Him. Just unthinkable.

[/quote]

The Heaven vs. Limbo argument does not center around whether or not innocents go to Heaven, it centers around whether or not the guilt of original sin is removed from unbaptized infants.


#13

[quote="devoutchristian, post:12, topic:317078"]
The Pope's every word is not infallible.

The Heaven vs. Limbo argument does not center around whether or not innocents go to Heaven, it centers around whether or not the guilt of original sin is removed from unbaptized infants.

[/quote]

I find it difficult to believe that if God is merciful and forgiving of the contrite and repentant post abortive mother,He would then deny His mercy towards the innocent life lost to abortion.:confused:


#14

[quote="Jeanne_S, post:13, topic:317078"]
I find it difficult to believe that if God is merciful and forgiving of the contrite and repentant post abortive mother,He would then deny His mercy towards the innocent life lost to abortion.:confused:

[/quote]

Again, no one contests that innocent souls are saved. What is contested is that the souls in question are innocent of original sin. (To be clear, I do believe that the stain of original sin is removed from them, I'm just trying to accurately represent the argument that they go to Limbo.)


#15

[quote="devoutchristian, post:5, topic:317078"]
That's a bit of a Red herring since they lived before the institution of baptism as being necessary for salvation and were killed in place of Christ.

[/quote]

I'll add… Martyrdom is baptism of blood as a witness to Christ. There is baptism of water, baptism of blood (martyrdom), and baptism of desire.

We know what God requires for salvation. **God can work outside of his revealed way of salvation. **However, we must live according to what God has revealed and not presume salvation for those who have not attained it according to God's revelation. :)

‎"Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains." - The Holy Ecumenical Council of Florence, Session 6 (July 6, 1439)


#16

[quote="devoutchristian, post:12, topic:317078"]
The Pope's every word is not infallible.

The Heaven vs. Limbo argument does not center around whether or not innocents go to Heaven, it centers around whether or not the guilt of original sin is removed from unbaptized infants.

[/quote]

Limbo was debunked. It actually means "on the shelf", in other words the Council had no reasonable method to deal with this conundrum during the time of the black death (worldwide plague). No God I know would take an unborn, innocent soul and subject it to separation from Him, since God has FOREKNOWLEDGE and that would mean He deliberately created this soul only to torment it.


#17

[quote="ellzeena, post:16, topic:317078"]
Limbo was debunked. It actually means "on the shelf", in other words the Council had no reasonable method to deal with this conundrum during the time of the black death (worldwide plague). No God I know would take an unborn, innocent soul and subject it to separation from Him, since God has FOREKNOWLEDGE and that would mean He deliberately created this soul only to torment it.

[/quote]

God can work outside of the Sacraments. That said, no soul is innocent. We are born with original sin. Original sin is the sin of being turned away from God. Only the Mother of God was born without original sin.


#18

[quote="PaulinePresbytr, post:1, topic:317078"]
Since the waters of baptism are not on their own inherently special but rather used by God as the means to regenerate souls, and God can use whatever means he pleases to regenerate souls may God have regenerated children murdered by abortion by some other means and saved them, being that they would have never had a chance to get baptized?

[/quote]

Yes. The Catechism addresses this:
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.


#19

[quote="TheDoctor, post:18, topic:317078"]
Yes. The Catechism addresses this:
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

[/quote]

We know how merciful God is. Everything I've been taught about my faith tells me God would not send a soul into this world without a means for salvation. :)


#20

[quote="pollynova, post:19, topic:317078"]
We know how merciful God is. Everything I've been taught about my faith tells me God would not send a soul into this world without a means for salvation. :)

[/quote]

I personally believe these innocent little ones are baptized by desire and are in Heaven with God.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.