Baptism-help me understand


#1

Hi I am a Protestant and you all have been very helpful so far. I was just wondering about baptism as it is related to salvation.

As I understand it now, you repent of your sins, accept jesus’s sacrifice for the forgiveness of your sins. Than get baptized. So my questions are these.

1] Is this correct order, is this correct catholic theology?

2] at this point are you in a state of grace from god, all your sins have been forgiven,that if you were hypothetically to never sin again and die, you would go to heaven?.

3] when you are baptized,it is jesus that is cleansing you of your sin and giving you the holy spirit correct? or is it the water and priest? who do you look to to cleans you of sin and give you the holy spirit?.

4] Could someone non catholic, that repents of their sin,accepts jesus and is baptized outside the catholic church,still be in a sate of grace and have their previous sins forgiven?.


#2

Many Catholics are baptized as babies, so parents and god-parents make the baptismal promises for them.

For unbaptized adults who wish to join the Catholic church, they undergo the Rites of Christian Initiation (RCIA), as part of these they go to Reconciliation (Confession) before they are baptized.

Note: RCIA is an ongoing process which can take up to a year (or more) to complete for those who have not been baptized.

If you die in a state of grace – you would go to Purgatory.

The priest is the channel through which Christ and the Holy Spirit cleanse you when you are baptized.

With God all things are possible.


#3
  1. Yes
  2. Yes, if you were to never sin again, even venially, you would go straight to heaven.
  3. It is Jesus working through the person baptizing you.
  4. Yes, baptism washes away all sins and the punishment associated with it. However, it is pretty much impossible to not sin. So, they would need priests to give them absolution. The priesthood is not something Protestants have.

#4

The catechumens do not go to confession prior to baptism.

They go through the scrutinies/exorcisms but not confession.

This is because baptism washes you of all sin.


#5

Yes your order is correct.

I just want to emphasize since in much of Protestantism baptism is just something nice to do.

In Catholic theology, one is baptized as soon as possible so that they can become Christians and have their sins washed clean. Baptism is essential.


#6

[quote="total_relism, post:1, topic:344795"]
Could someone non catholic, that repents of their sin,accepts jesus and is baptized outside the catholic church,still be in a sate of grace and have their previous sins forgiven?

[/quote]

If they didn't know at the time about the need to become Catholic, then yes. :)


#7

ans: 1 Yes
2 Yes but nothing imperfect shall enter Heaven…Jesus, as stated by others, you need to be purified of any of the negative effects of original sin Baptism removes original sin but not its effects.

3 It is Jesus who cleanses and gives you His Spirit. Baptism was instituted by Christ. Jesus made Baptism a visible sign to give the grace of salvation and and to signify the grace it gives. The priest is an instrument of Christ, not the source of grace. Christ said to the Apostles and their successors" Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain are retained."

4 Yes. If the formula that Jesus required is used. I Baptize you in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit pouring water or immersing the person at the same time. At that point we become adopted children of God, members of His mystical body


#8

what is absolution? what than happens to the person baptized,that sins after with no priest? can he not ask god for forgiveness?
1 John 1:9

what do you mean by this

“Baptism removes original sin but not its effects.”

that we are still sinners?


#9

These are the words that Christ says, through the priest. when He forgives us of our sins, when we confess them.

what than happens to the person baptized,that sins after with no priest? can he not ask god for forgiveness?
1 John 1:9

I John 1:9 reminds us that when we go to Confession and confess our sins, God will certainly forgive us. :slight_smile:

But if there is no priest, then there can be no Confession, and no absolution.

what do you mean by this

“Baptism removes original sin but not its effects.”

that we are still sinners?

That we are still beset with temptation to sin. But one who does not sin is not a sinner.


#10

why does god need a priest to forgive? almost makes it seem as if god is unable, and the priest has the power.


#11

[quote="total_relism, post:10, topic:344795"]
why does god need a priest to forgive? almost makes it seem as if god is unable, and the priest has the power.

[/quote]

Jesus gave them the power, so that we would have need for one another. His greatest commandment is that we love one another, but the starting place to love one another is to need one another.


#12

God does not need a priest. Just like he did not need a sacrifice of animals in the Old Testament. Instead, these things are things he COMMANDS of us in order for us to properly commune with him, and properly practice our faith in Him.

We are bound by the Sacraments, by what God has revealed for us to do. It is his instruction and we are to do it. So if there is a priest available, we must go to that priest for absolution of our sins, just as in the old testament they HAD to go to the priest with animal sacrifice.

If there is no priest around, then you should make a perfect act of contrition before God and hope in his mercy and justice.

The Catholic Church teaches Catholics to do this and then to get to a priest as soon as possible.

So if someone on a desert island commits a sin, he could pray to God for forgiveness and vow to go to Confession with a Priest should it ever become available.

Example of a Perfect Act of Contrition:

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and the pains of hell;
but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.


#13

When Adam sinned by pride (be like God if you eat the fruit) God said “you shall die the death” This punishment went to all of mankind. We inherited the punishment called original sin. Heaven was, closed, conversation with God ceased, the Holy Spirit was lost to man. God promised a redeemer. (Jesus). This sin caused the original gift of justice, that is that all of man’s actions were controled by his reason, which was enlightened by the Holy Spirit. This was lost and Adam and Eve after sinning felt guilt, they hid, and found they were naked.They were naked before the Fall and they had no problems with guilt because their passions were controlled by right reason. (a gift from God). They and us experienced effects from this loss of rational rule. ;The church call these effects, concupiscence, darkness of mind, and weakness of will. Concupisence (meaning with-disire) morally means we have a strong leaning towards the sensual. It is not a sin in itself, but can tempt or influence to sin.our will power is weak, and we are ignorant regarding truth. Jesus said “forgive them for they do not know what they do”. ST. Paul said "The things I do are the things I don’t want to do and the things I want to do are the things I don’t do, who will help me, Jesus Christ. Baptism takes away Original sin, but not its effects. Pride, self-love, selfishness are effects of sin. It is by the Holy Spirit that we receive the grace through the merits of Jesus that we are perfected of these effects of original sin. The late St.Padre Pio stated that he was constantly troubled by an evil angel who took advantage of the effect of concupisence. Look at society, there is over-whelming evidence of this truth. :blush: Lord help us inspite of our weaknesses!!


#14

[quote="Jon_S, post:12, topic:344795"]
God does not need a priest. Just like he did not need a sacrifice of animals in the Old Testament. Instead, these things are things he COMMANDS of us in order for us to properly commune with him, and properly practice our faith in Him.

We are bound by the Sacraments, by what God has revealed for us to do. It is his instruction and we are to do it. So if there is a priest available, we must go to that priest for absolution of our sins, just as in the old testament they HAD to go to the priest with animal sacrifice.

If there is no priest around, then you should make a perfect act of contrition before God and hope in his mercy and justice.

The Catholic Church teaches Catholics to do this and then to get to a priest as soon as possible.

So if someone on a desert island commits a sin, he could pray to God for forgiveness and vow to go to Confession with a Priest should it ever become available.

Example of a Perfect Act of Contrition:

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and the pains of hell;
but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.

[/quote]

[quote="ynotzap, post:13, topic:344795"]
When Adam sinned by pride (be like God if you eat the fruit) God said "you shall die the death" This punishment went to all of mankind. We inherited the punishment called original sin. Heaven was, closed, conversation with God ceased, the Holy Spirit was lost to man. God promised a redeemer. (Jesus). This sin caused the original gift of justice, that is that all of man's actions were controled by his reason, which was enlightened by the Holy Spirit. This was lost and Adam and Eve after sinning felt guilt, they hid, and found they were naked.They were naked before the Fall and they had no problems with guilt because their passions were controlled by right reason. (a gift from God). They and us experienced effects from this loss of rational rule. ;The church call these effects, concupiscence, darkness of mind, and weakness of will. Concupisence (meaning with-disire) morally means we have a strong leaning towards the sensual. It is not a sin in itself, but can tempt or influence to sin.our will power is weak, and we are ignorant regarding truth. Jesus said "forgive them for they do not know what they do". ST. Paul said "The things I do are the things I don't want to do and the things I want to do are the things I don't do, who will help me, Jesus Christ. Baptism takes away Original sin, but not its effects. Pride, self-love, selfishness are effects of sin. It is by the Holy Spirit that we receive the grace through the merits of Jesus that we are perfected of these effects of original sin. The late St.Padre Pio stated that he was constantly troubled by an evil angel who took advantage of the effect of concupisence. Look at society, there is over-whelming evidence of this truth. :blush: Lord help us inspite of our weaknesses!!

[/quote]

thank you for your responces


#15

I had a few questions on church baptism

1]what is said by the priest during the ceremony?

2]what does the person being baptized say during a baptism?

3] what kind of thoughts/prayers are said?

thanks.


#16

1]what is said by the priest during the ceremony?
Many things are said by the priest during the ceremony. For the actual baptism itself, the priest says, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.”

2]what does the person being baptized say during a baptism?
In terms of infant baptism, which is practiced in our Faith, the one being baptized does not say anything (except for the really enthusiastic babies who say A LOT ;)).
**

3] what kind of thoughts/prayers are said?**
There are prayers, readings, more prayers for the parents and godparents… it really is a beautiful rite. Text linked here.


#17

The traditional (roman rite) order can be found here unavoceventura.org/resources/Baptism_program_long.pdf

The more modern rite is similar.

There are also eastern rite Churches who have a different ritual (it would be the same as the Eastern Orthodox)


#18

Sorry I just realized the linked order doesn’t translate everything look here instead unavoceventura.org/resources/Baptism_program_short.pdf


#19

if I may, how would an adult conditional baptism go?


#20

[quote="Ophelia23, post:16, topic:344795"]
1]what is said by the priest during the ceremony?
Many things are said by the priest during the ceremony. For the actual baptism itself, the priest says, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen."

2]what does the person being baptized say during a baptism?
In terms of infant baptism, which is practiced in our Faith, the one being baptized does not say anything (except for the really enthusiastic babies who say A LOT ;)).

**

3] what kind of thoughts/prayers are said?**
There are prayers, readings, more prayers for the parents and godparents... it really is a beautiful rite. Text linked here.

[/quote]

baptized for the remission of sins right? what about adult baptism, what is said than?.

thanks

[quote="BenP, post:17, topic:344795"]
The traditional (roman rite) order can be found here unavoceventura.org/resources/Baptism_program_long.pdf

The more modern rite is similar.

There are also eastern rite Churches who have a different ritual (it would be the same as the Eastern Orthodox)

[/quote]

ty.


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