Baptism, non-essential!


#1

Baptism is a covenant sign and is not essential for salvation, in fact I think satan licks his chops at this verse (acts 2:38) in that many people think that being baptized is the necessary factor in salvation.


#2

John Chapter 3

1 And there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night, and said to him: Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God; for no man can do these signs which thou dost, unless God be with him. 3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You say you are a “fundamentalist”, so I assume that you believe in the truth of Scripture. Why don’t you believe what Jesus clearly taught?

God Bless


#3

Satan must love this quote then:

1 Peter 3:21

21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Come on in. The water’s nice. A little wash in the, “bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit” can’t hurt (Titus 3:5). As Ananias said, “why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away” (Acts 22:16). The Ethiopian eunuch heard the gospel and didn’t delay (Acts 8:36).

God bless.

-Rob


#4

I think Satan licks his chops everytime another Cardinal is charged with sex abuse.


#5

So what? Seriously, so what? What difference does it make if all those who are saved get baptized, vs. if baptism is essential for salvation. The end result is exactly the same. So, so what?


#6

What is the end results? We all get back to heaven and find out that God does not condemn his creations but only loves and cherishes us all?


#7

The problem is “we all” don’t get back to Heaven. Many go to Hell.

To quote our Lord again.

13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Christ and the Apostles were quite clear on this point. Preaching a false universal salvation only leads souls to damnation.

God Bless


#8

The end result is baptism and possibility of salvation.


#9

This is the only verse that says “baptism now saves you.” But, is it teaching that we must be baptized in water to be saved? No. But, but to rightly understand it, we need to look at its context.

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. **21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, **22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him,” (1 Pet. 3:18-22, NASB).
The above translation in verse 21 from the NASB is a good translation: “and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.” The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon.
It means “copy,” “type,” “corresponding to,” “a thing resembling another,” “its counterpart,” etc. It is what the NIV translates as “symbolizes,” the NASB as “corresponding to that,” and the KJV as “like figure.” Baptism, then, is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is “Of what is it a type?”, or “baptism corresponds to what?”.
If we look at the context, an interesting possibility arises. What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family, the flood or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith and he was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Also, Peter consistently refers to the flood waters as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6), not the salvation of Noah and his family. Rather, it was the Ark that saved, the ark that Noah entered by faith. It may very well be that baptism refers to the Ark, not the waters which may be why the rest of the verse says, “not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God” which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where He equates baptism with being circumcised of heart. Peter clarifies that it isn’t the water baptism that saves, but the appeal to the heart.


#10

What I believe is scripture is very clear on requirements of salvation…most of what the New Testament says about salvation doesn’t include baptism at all! (John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 14:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 10:9-13, Eph. 2:8-9, etc.), and the few places that do mention water baptism do not include it as part of one’s salvation. Water baptism follows salvation as one of the first steps of obedience for the new believer.


#11

God is love not anger…
Scripture is clear that if you are born of the spirit you’ll not be forsaken.


#12

Possibility?
titus 3:5he** saved **us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.


#13

That’s right, “possibility”. If you want to start another thread on OSAS then make it another thread. Unless you want to hijack your own thread. :rolleyes:


#14

But, again,

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus says “unless”, which makes Baptism a pre-condition of salvation, and this is what the traditional Church (East and West) has always tought.

God Bless


#15

God is perfect love and perfect justice. Scripture is perfectly clear that many will go to Hell. Jesus mentions Hell many more time than Heaven. (I don’t have to quote St. Matthew on the Last Judgement do I?) People will go to Hell for breaking God’s laws and dying unrepentent.

I don’t know what “born of the spirit” means in this context?

God Bless


#16

It means “copy,” “type,” “corresponding to,” “a thing resembling another,” “its counterpart,” etc. It is what the NIV translates as “symbolizes,” the NASB as “corresponding to that,” and the KJV as “like figure.” Baptism, then, is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is “Of what is it a type?”, or “baptism corresponds to what?”.

 If we look at the context, an interesting possibility arises.  What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family, the flood or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith and he was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly.  Also, Peter consistently refers to the flood waters as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6), not the salvation of Noah and his family.  Rather, it was the Ark that saved, the ark that Noah entered by faith.  It may very well be that baptism refers to the Ark, not the waters which may be why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where He equates baptism with being circumcised of heart.   Peter clarifies that it isn't the water baptism that saves, but the appeal to the heart.

By chopping up the verse too finely you do damage to its meaning. What Peter is saying is this: “a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.” It is “this” which prefigured baptism. Not the water by itself, not the ark by itself, etc. It is, “a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.” I say this in such a way so as to be inclusive of everything in the verse. So when it says, “this prefigured baptism” he clearly means, “a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water” prefigured baptism. Hence, a few persons being saved through water prefigured baptism which saves you now, quite clearly the context teaches-- because in baptism we are also, “saved through water.”

Your interpretation of the concluding part about, “not the removal of dirt from the body” is equally unconvincing. This cuts very clearly against a view of baptism as a mere ordinance and not a sacrament. Peter is affirming that baptism is not a mere ritual sprinkling which only has the power to clean our body, hence its purpose is not for, “the removal of dirt.” It is a sacrament which cleanses our conscience before God and makes us right in His sight. Verily, “an appeal to God for a clean conscience.”

Your explanation completely dodges the question of, “in what sense does baptism save?” You go 360 degrees and conclude that baptism doesn’t save.

But I’d also be interested in hearing your interpretation of Ananias’s comment to Paul… be baptized and have your sins washed away. This is completely reconcilable with my interpretation of Peter’s verse, and completely at odds with yours. Baptism literally, “washes your sins away.” Precisely because it is not for, ‘the removal of dirt’ from the body, but, ‘for a clean conscience,’ which it truly effects. It is the bath of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit for our justification by grace (Titus 3:5-7).

-Rob


#17

You quoted
John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.’"
Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn’t yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn’t necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.


#18

Quote the balance of the verse, so as to not confuse…

arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, **calling on the name of the Lord. **


#19

This still leaves it unexplained.

Why does it say, wash away your sins? Using the last part of the verse to avoid interpreting the rest of it is a dodge, not an explanation.

-Rob


#20

Of course it means Baptism. John had already begun baptizing in Ch.1 of St. John, and, as we know from other Gospels, Jesus himself was Baptized, by water.

God Bless


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