Baptism question


#1

The CCC states that an unbaptized person can baptize if it is done in the context of Church teachings. So, my question is: If a person is in imminent danger of dying and there is no one around can they baptize themselves? Please give me Church documentation for your answer as this has been asked to me in my pre baptism classes. Everything points to yes but just as we cannot self-communicate with the Eucharist would that apply here as well? Anyway, all thoughts are welcome and I thank you in advance for your replies.


#2

[quote="teachccd, post:1, topic:339190"]
So, my question is: If a person is in imminent danger of dying and there is no one around can they baptize themselves?

[/quote]

No, you cannot baptize yourself.

[quote="teachccd, post:1, topic:339190"]
Please give me Church documentation for your answer as this has been asked to me in my pre baptism classes. Everything points to yes but just as we cannot self-communicate with the Eucharist would that apply here as well?

[/quote]

I baptize YOU... the baptizer and baptizee are different people.


#3

[quote="1ke, post:2, topic:339190"]
No, you cannot baptize yourself.

I baptize YOU... the baptizer and baptizee are different people.

[/quote]

Makes sense but is there anything other than the form that substantiates that they cannot be one and the same? Seems like that should suffice but if there is more then I can relay it to this individual who is convinced that one can baptize him/herself.

Anyone? if not then I shall go with this. Thank you 1ke for your reply,


#4

[quote="teachccd, post:3, topic:339190"]
Makes sense but is there anything other than the form that substantiates that they cannot be one and the same? Seems like that should suffice but if there is more then I can relay it to this individual who is convinced that one can baptize him/herself.

Anyone? if not then I shall go with this. Thank you 1ke for your reply,

[/quote]

It was stated dogmatically in the 1300's that baptizing oneself is invalid, but it is a baptism of desire if sincere. Later tonight when I'm not busy I can search around for it.


#5

No!

The Sacraments and Their Celebration
[Fr] **Nicholas Halligan ** O.P.] (Author)
Nihil Obstat & Imprimatur Archdiocese Washington D.C.

[size=] Page 28**[/size] [INDENT]

[quote]No one can baptize himself

. 25

**25: Pope Innocent III 28 Aug 1206 **

[/quote]

[/INDENT]

Pax Christi


#6

[quote="teachccd, post:3, topic:339190"]
Makes sense but is there anything other than the form that substantiates that they cannot be one and the same? Seems like that should suffice but if there is more then I can relay it to this individual who is convinced that one can baptize him/herself.

Anyone? if not then I shall go with this. Thank you 1ke for your reply,

[/quote]

As a paramedic they teach us in all the books how to baptize in case the individual or family (of a small child) requests baptism and the person is in immediate danger of death.

If I could just tell the guy to do it himself, then they would probably not teach it to every paramedic in the text books.


#7

[quote="TRH1292, post:4, topic:339190"]
It was stated dogmatically in the 1300's that baptizing oneself is invalid, but it is a baptism of desire if sincere. Later tonight when I'm not busy I can search around for it.

[/quote]

If you can find the documentation I would appreciate it. I agree with everyone here but just saying no or that it wouldn't be practical doesn't hold water when someone wants to verify official Church teachings. Even books with the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur have been known to give theological opinions that do not necessarily go against Church teachings but rely on the author's interpretation. If there is not official Church teaching then one could say that a person cannot baptize themselves and not break any teachings.

So, I still cannot find where the Church officially speaks on this so I hope that there is something other than opinions. Thank you and God bless!! :)


#8

[quote="1ke, post:2, topic:339190"]
No, you cannot baptize yourself.

I baptize YOU... the baptizer and baptizee are different people.

[/quote]

In the Eastern Church the form is different but still valid:

1240 **In the Latin Church this triple infusion is accompanied by the minister's words: "N., I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." In the Eastern liturgies the catechumen turns toward the East and the priest says: "The servant of God, N., is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."** At the invocation of each person of the Most Holy Trinity, the priest immerses the candidate in the water and raises him up again.

Here it says that the priest performs the baptism but these words could be used by the same individual if all things remain the same whereby an unbaptized person can baptize. So, it is still not conclusive as far as I can see. I wish to emphasize that I am not promoting anyone doing this but after 12 years of teaching this class this question came up and I was at a loss for any official documentation. The Catechism seems silent on this and all I have is what people can infer from what is known. Thank you again and I hope to find something or else I will just have to say that in most people's opinion one cannot do this.

I am still leaning that maybe somewhere it says that one cannot confect the sacraments on themselves covering all grounds. But I really haven't found anything.


#9

Read post 5 again.


#10

[quote="teachccd, post:8, topic:339190"]

I am still leaning that maybe somewhere it says that one cannot confect the sacraments on themselves covering all grounds. But I really haven't found anything.

[/quote]

From the letter "Debitum pastoralis officii", August 28, 1206

"You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jew, when at he point of death, since he lived only among Jews, immersed himself in water while saying: 'I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.'

We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord,] the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another"

cmri.org/adsum04-1a.html


#11

[quote="1ke, post:10, topic:339190"]
From the letter "Debitum pastoralis officii", August 28, 1206

"You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jew, when at he point of death, since he lived only among Jews, immersed himself in water while saying: 'I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.'

We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord,] the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another"

cmri.org/adsum04-1a.html

[/quote]

Thats what I was thinking of. After that statement the Pope adds, "If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed off to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith "


#12

[quote="1ke, post:10, topic:339190"]
From the letter "Debitum pastoralis officii", August 28, 1206

"You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jew, when at he point of death, since he lived only among Jews, immersed himself in water while saying: 'I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.'

We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord,] the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another"

cmri.org/adsum04-1a.html

[/quote]

Thank you very much!! That helps a lot. I hope that everyone here knows that I never taught that anyone could baptize themselves nor have I ever suggested the notion. I just had this question come up and I wanted to give more than, "Well it's not really a good idea". When one teaches adults they have to substantiate their claims or else it just becomes another opinion . Thanks again and God bless you.........teachccd :)


#13

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