Baptist brother posts follow jesus not his people

My brother who is Baptist posted a picture that said " Jesus never said ‘follow my people’ he said ‘follow me’ don’t let the hypocrisy in churches stop you from following Jesus"

I then responded "how do we follow him? by listening to the ones he gave authority to teach in His name. the church headed by the apostles. he said “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me”

He replied “He says we must place him before other important people in our lives. Even before ourselves.”

I said “that doesnt contradict my comment”

Can anyone help with this?

UPDATE: he replied with “even above a “church””

I then said “a church but what about The Church. you see the church Jesus says is His body. theyre in a sense one. so folowing Jesus is following His church. the one he gave that authority to. so we have to ask ourselves. with the the ocean of churches out there, which was tye church Jesus is talking about. which one does he give this authority to. “even above a “church”” still doesnt contradict what my comment said and is off topic with following Jesus”

I continue with “this thinking of somehow following jesus but not His church follows the same flawed pattern that protestants always take where they create false dichotomies. “church vs Jesus”, “scripture vs tradition”, “works vs faith”. the answer to these is “both and” not “either or”. “either or” is what causes hypocrisies”

Protestants who say these things often simply don’t want to be under anyone’s authority but their own. Of course, this is not what they practice. Nearly all such Protestants have a pastor in a church of some kind. So, how do they explain the need for such a pastor or church if Jesus is all we need and the only one we are to follow? They may say that their pastor doesn’t claim that authority, so then you have to ask, “Then why listen to him or do anything he says?” They just can’t escape the reality that Jesus never intended us to be “Lone Rangers” but to be members of a family that is he body with him as the head. Jesus appointed leaders who made decisions for the whole Church. Cite Acts 15–the First Council of Jersusalem. If we are to follow Jesus alone why did they even have a council to decide anything? Why couldn’t everyone just do what they thought best as led by the Holy Spirit? No, the whole idea breaks down pretty quickly in the light of reality.

John 21.

  1. Jesus is the Good Shepherd.

  2. Jesus tells Peter to tend and care for His sheep.

  3. Who are the sheep? You and me and every other believer.

  4. Who cares for sheep? A shepherd.

  5. Sheep follow their shepherd who tends and cares for them.

You and me and every other believer are to follow Peter (and his successors, the popes) the shepherd Jesus commanded to watch over us.

Yes, Jesus IS the Good Shepherd - which makes it all the more significant the He told Peter to watch over His flock as the vicarious shepherd after Jesus ascended.

The Popes today continue to care for Jesus’ flock here on earth.

he said “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me”

This passage from the Bible was intended for those Christ sent, the Apostles. We trust Jesus through the Apostles, and their successors.

Share this article with your brother…see if he has the guts to read it:

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

Aquinas believed that faith in Christ necessarily involves trusting the Church, because Christ cannot fail to guide and protect the development of His Church.

I came to see that I did not fully trust Christ, not because I thought Him untrustworthy, but because I had not understood that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head, and which He has promised to protect and preserve until He returns. I had not apprehended the ecclesial organ Christ established through which the members of His Body are to trust Him. I came to see that faith in Christ is not something to be exercised invisibly, from my heart directly to Christ’s throne, as though Christ had not appointed an enduring line of shepherds. Inward faith was to be exercised outwardly, by trusting Christ through those shepherds Christ sent and established. Jesus had said, “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”29

This is the sacramental conception of faith, not simply belief that, but belief through. This is the sacramental conception of the Church, the basis for the priest speaking in persona Christi.

But upon coming to understand that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head and which He promised to preserve, I came to see that the way to trust Christ is to trust His Church of which He is the Head, just as the early Christians trusted Christ precisely by trusting the teaching of the Apostles. Trusting the Apostles did not subtract from (or compete with) their trust in Christ. On the contrary, when Jesus tells the Apostle Thomas, “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed,”30 He implies that greater faith is required and shown in those who trust in Christ not by seeing Him, but by believing the testimony of the Apostles. Jesus refers to this way of believing when He prays, “I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word.”31

ask your Brother if he respects and listens to his pastor. If the answer is yes, then ask him “OK, so what you are saying is that your ‘Pope’ has more authority than my Pope?”

If his answer is no, then say “so you are saying that you are your own ‘Pope’ and you alone speak with God’s authority?”

Protestants like this have an issue with authority, but all protestant groups (even the I don’t listen to anyone but myself crowd) submit to authority, whether they realize it or not.

Then why is he a Baptist? He is following John Smyth (1609), Roger Williams, John Spilsbury and John Clark (1638), men who founded the Baptist faith. He is indeed following the “followers”.

I like Randy Carson’s reply as well as phil19034. Lighthouse Catholic Media has a 45 minute CD titled “I’m Not Being Fed”. The point of the CD is directed at the unfortunate situation of Catholics claiming they leave the Church because they were not “fed” by the Catholic Church, but it also discusses in a pastoral way, who is the Good Shepherd, who has responsibility for feeding the flock, and and that Christ left a deposit of faith with the apostles - Peter having primacy (as do his successors).

My brother is a deacon in his Baptist Church here in Georgia. I have about gotten him to a point where he understands we are not re-crucifying Jesus in the Mass & worshipping idols. :thumbsup: I think he would benefit from biblical arguments as would your brother. phil19034 is correct - the heart of Protestantism evolves around authority. That’s how you end up with 30 + thousand denominations.

God Bless.
JB

With all due respect, your brother doesn’t know what he is talking about.

so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. (Matthew 23:3)

Jesus says that we are to do whatever legitimate religious authority tells us to do.

-Tim-

Baptist Churches are independent/y run or ruled with the pastor as the leader then the deacons but the congregation votes on all matters in regards to the running of the Church .
my first post

he now says"Just making that statement Len is not putting the emphasis on Jesus and putting the emphasis in how you follow him. What’s important is that you follow him. Not how you get there"

I agree, don’t let peoples hypocrisy keep you from Jesus and His Church. He said he would found His Church, and Jesus doesn’t lie. He identifies Himself with His Church. When Paul was going to Damascus to persecute The Church, Jesus struck him blind and asked him, not why are you persecuting my church, but why are you persecuting Me!

He’s dodging the issue, which means he doesn’t have an answer–he wants to stop talking about it, for now. When people react like that all you can do is leave it up to him to initiate any new discussion. If you push him, he could clamp down. People who have a problem with the Church’s authority often are afraid of the Church and of getting involved in it. If that’s the case here, you may want to ferret out why–at at time and place when he is open to listening. You know him best, so you will know when the time is right. All you can do is pray, be patient, and help him understand when he wants to. :slight_smile:

this is so nonsensical that I don’t know where to start with it. Can someone help?

He’s still claiming we need no one but Jesus–something Jesus himself never claimed. When Jesus said, “Come, follow me.” Jesus didn’t say, “Come, follow me and me alone–no one else at all.” He’s reading things into Jesus’ words that aren’t there to try to justify his position.

But without any guidance, how does one know how to follow Him? How do you know you are doing it right, and not falling into heresy? When you interpret the Bible by yourself, you are essentially your own “pope”. No matter what you believe, you are following some “pope”, whether that be Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, Fred Phelps, Chuck Smith, Pat Robertson, Pope Francis or just yourself. Besides, Jesus did not wish Christian worship to be a solitary practice. It’s meant to be in communion with others, so the only question is “Which others?”

He now says “He gives his authority to no one other than God. To think otherwise is believing in a false idol. This is laid out in the Ten Commandments.”

So Jesus gives authority to Peter in Matt 16:18. Also previously when he told Peter to feed my sheep. What other verses can I use to show this?

A partial list, but it may help the conversation:

Authority Given by God to Men to Rule His People:

Num. 27[18] And the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him; [19] cause him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and all the congregation, and you shall commission him in their sight. [20] You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.

Mt. 10[1] And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.

Mk. 6[7] And he called to him the twelve, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits

2Cor. 10[8] For even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I shall not be put to shame.

2Cor. 13[10] I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.

Tit. 2[15] Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Num. 27[16] "Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,

Deut. 7[13] Choose wise, understanding, and experienced men, according to your tribes, and I will appoint them as your heads.’

Deut. 16[18] "You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns which the LORD your God gives you, according to your tribes; and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.

Ezra 7[25a] "And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God which is in your hand, appoint magistrates and judges who may judge all the people…

Acts 6[3] Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty.

Acts 26[16] But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,

Tit. 1[5] This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you,

Ex. 28[41] And you shall put them upon Aaron your brother, and upon his sons with him, and shall anoint them and ordain them and consecrate them, that they may serve me as priests.

Heb. 13 [17] Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Mt. 16 [19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Mt. 18 [18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jn.[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. [23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

You are right, for us there is no contradiction,but a Baptist does not have an infallible magesterium in whom they can place their trust. And even if they do have trustworthy leadership, the advice is good. I have met many Catholics on CAF who have left the One Faith because they were hurt by someone in the Church, failing to look past the shortcomings of people to Christ.

He is also right that we are always to place Christ as our Head. The leaders who are worthy of our trust are those that do this:

"For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; “…to give you in our conduct an example to imitate.” 2 Thess 3:7 & 9

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;” 1 Tim 5:17-18

“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” Heb 13:7

“Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. 2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.…” I Cor 11:1

Here is a good analogy and explanation:

This is from the thread here: forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=12440153&postcount=16

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