Beatific Vision


#1

I recently was rebuked by a catholic theologian who has recently retired from teaching at a local seminary. He explained to me that I was entirely wrong about the human soul of Jesus being in beatific vision. I checked with several sources to see if I really was incorrect. Included among these sources was several priests, tapes by archbishop Fulton Sheen and information from the Vatican website.

In each case the teaching matched my original belief that Jesus’s human soul was always in beatific vision from the first moment of existance. Because of this state of beatific vision every word spoken by Christ was from God.

This encounter taught me some valuable lessons. First that you can’t believe everything you hear even from those appointed to be teachers. Second we must never be too quick to judge and we must be more understanding with priest who through no fault of their own have been miseducated in fundemental ideas of our faith. Third always trust in the traditional teachings of the Church.


#2

Raphael,

What you have learned is why the Catholic Church does not accept Sola Scriptura, the teaching that Scriptura is the sole rule of faith. Jesus said that we are to live on every word that comes from the mouth of God, not just those recorded in Scripture.

Since Jesus is God, then, as you pointed out, every word He spoke was from the mouth of God. And as John pointed out at the end of his gospel, not everything Jesus said or did could be written down.


#3

[quote=Raphael]I recently was rebuked by a catholic theologian who has recently retired from teaching at a local seminary. He explained to me that I was entirely wrong about the human soul of Jesus being in beatific vision. I checked with several sources to see if I really was incorrect. Included among these sources was several priests, tapes by archbishop Fulton Sheen and information from the Vatican website.

In each case the teaching matched my original belief that Jesus’s human soul was always in beatific vision from the first moment of existance. Because of this state of beatific vision every word spoken by Christ was from God.

This encounter taught me some valuable lessons. First that you can’t believe everything you hear even from those appointed to be teachers. Second we must never be too quick to judge and we must be more understanding with priest who through no fault of their own have been miseducated in fundemental ideas of our faith. Third always trust in the traditional teachings of the Church.
[/quote]

I guess before I went too much further down this path, I might check, for example, Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine to see if the issue is defined. There are numerous areas in Theology in which there are two or more opinions, both or all of which may be acceptable. I don’t know the answer to this one, but before I made a decision that the first priest you spoke to is wrong, I would do some more research…


#4

To be absent FROM THE BODY is to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD.II Cor 5:8


#5

[quote=rarndt01]To be absent FROM THE BODY is to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD.II Cor 5:8
[/quote]

Uhh, that’s not what Paul meant when he said “We would rathyer be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.” One could be absent from the body, and not in the presence of Lord. Such is the fate of those in Hell.


#6

As always, you distort the word of God and really distort Paul’s words to suit your own heresy. Of course Paul said he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Not because he had another place in mind after he died, BUT BECAUSE HE WAS STILL IN HIS BODY PREACHING THE GOSPEL UNDER GREAT STRESS. That was the third thing he meant. Paul desired to be free of his labors and be with the Lord. Quit distorting the word of God and the words of Paul to suit your own heresies.

                                               Ron from Ohio

#7

[quote=rarndt01]As always, you distort the word of God and really distort Paul’s words to suit your own heresy.
[/quote]

Were you talking to me, Ron? Before insulting someone, you might want to be clear who you are talking to.:confused:


#8

Your name is Michael Welter isn’t it? Read your previous post and maybe you will get the drift?

                                            Ron from Ohio

#9

I’m sorry Ron, but why do you say that I always distort the word of God to support my own heresies? You don’t know me. I assume you’ve never heard me speak, and yet you feel you can pass judgement on me?

I was simply trying to respectfully disagree with your misinterpretation of Paul’s writing. Paul said “We would rather be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.” and you interpretted that to mean “To be absent FROM THE BODY is to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD.” Did I misunderstand you? It sounds like you are saying that a person, any person, cannot be absent from the body AND absent from the Lord at the same time.

Ron, I cherish my Catholic faith and follow the Church’s teaching explicitly. Calling me a heretic cuts deeply into my heart.

May our Lord’s blessings be upon you.


#10

Unfortunately, you still don’t believe to be absent from the body at death is immediately to be present with the Lord. I do.

Ron from Ohio


#11

I think I understand what you are saying, Ron. Help me to understand. If a person dies and goes to Hell, are they not absent from the body AND absent from the Lord?


#12

Perhaps he doesn;t believe in hell… hmm?
ah, the irony…

WHERE IS THE HOLY INQUISITION??


#13

Believe that God the Holy Spirit – in the name of Jesus-- ALWAYS guide those who BELIEVE Him (trust Him).

Second we must never be too quick to judge and we must be more understanding with priest who through no fault of their own have been miseducated in fundemental ideas of our faith.

Listen and respect your teachers and priests always.

Third always trust in the traditional teachings of the Church.

Let the tradition be for men and not men for tradition. Let Mother Mary submit to her Spouse who is God the Holy Spirit.

May God bless us all.


#14

No, Paul was speaking of himself as a Christian. As a Christian he was saying at death when one becomes absent from the body he is present with the Lord. Paul taught Christians go to heaven at death. Nothing is mentioned about Christians going to hell.

                                                    Ron from Ohio

#15

[quote=rarndt01]No, Paul was speaking of himself as a Christian. As a Christian he was saying at death when one becomes absent from the body he is present with the Lord. Paul taught Christians go to heaven at death. Nothing is mentioned about Christians going to hell.

                                                    Ron from Ohio

[/quote]

OK, now we know where you are coming from. Paul also spoke of his concerns of not making it to heaven. You might want to read Paul a little more carefully. He never defined “christian” as one who was going to heaven.


#16

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