Beating your head up against a wall


#1

So, What do you do if showing scripture, explaining the logic, and even using their own rules gets you absolutly no where…

I jsut had a “discussion” with someone convensesd reading the bible in context was bad… I showed her scripture to the contrary, explained the logic was bad, so on and so forth, finally she said I am not reading the bible and need to study more clearly…

Finally, she left that board saying I know I am right your wrong poo on you. I am taking my toys and im goin’ home (not exact words)

So… what do you do when you hit brick walls like this… do you move on, or try again later

(by the way, i didnt even know readin in context was an issue…)

Cheers


#2

Before you get into discussions on faith with those of different faiths a good question to ask them might be “If I explained everything to you in a way that would satisfy you intellectually to the point where everything I professed would seem reasonable to you would you then believe me?” If they say no then why engage them in discussions if they’re steadfast in their belief?

Conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit. Please pray for those of different faiths that they might have their hearts open to the Truth.


#3

Josh,
Your right even if you play by there rules they tend to not listen even when you show them the truth. My suggestion is pick a topic that the person believes with thier whole heart. This weekend thier was a break through with the person that I was defending the faith against. I asked him about how was it that he could believe that the Apostle James was the brother of Jesus? The same apostle that wrote the letter of james, the same james who’s brother wrote the letter of Jude, since that James was listed as the son of Alphaeus and the other James was listed as the son of Zebedee? Lets just say that he could not answer the question and He conceded that it was possible for Mary not to have other Children. The point is your job is just to plant the Seed, if your lucky you might just see it sprout before your eyes. Most people that fight off some very fiercely like a truth are closer to converstion than you think. YOu just have to find the right combination of question to ask. Keep trying. I have been trying with this guy for Five years. And in those five years that was the first time he said the Catholic Church might be right. Yeah sure he said might, but the point is that he is now being more open to the possibility of the Catholic CHurch. All CHrist needs is a crack. I hope that helps to encourage you. Laters Lupe


#4

Folk who feel the way this gal of yours do don’t operate by using logic but by what “feels right” to them. You can’t argue against feelings. To reach this sort of person you much appeal to their sense of what is right and what is wrong as they see it. You are talking past one another, you see.

To them the Bible is only a succesion of verses that prove what they already “feel” is right. So, don’t argue against their understanding of the Bible, rather relate what they’ve got right in their belief system to the beliefs and practices of Catholics. :wink: You need a common base/a common language before you will be able to understand one another.


#5

[quote=jjoshjl]So, What do you do if showing scripture, explaining the logic, and even using their own rules gets you absolutly no where…

I jsut had a “discussion” with someone convensesd reading the bible in context was bad… I showed her scripture to the contrary, explained the logic was bad, so on and so forth, finally she said I am not reading the bible and need to study more clearly…

Finally, she left that board saying I know I am right your wrong poo on you. I am taking my toys and im goin’ home (not exact words)

So… what do you do when you hit brick walls like this… do you move on, or try again later

(by the way, i didnt even know readin in context was an issue…)

Cheers
[/quote]

Hi Josh,
Get used to it buddy. I have spent some time on n-C forums (and been booted from a few) & one thing that is often consistent is that sometimes there is simply no reasoning with these folks. Often it’s like, “My mind is made up…don’t confuse me with the facts.” That doesn’t make good sense or theology either one.

One thing that I have discovered is that it is best to discuss the faith only with those who ask for it. As a result, I have begun to limit my time on n-C forums and spend more time here where the n-Cs who ask questions are at least (generally) more serious about getting some answers.

Recently I got banned from a board for posting the actual quotes from the articles in Cornerstone and Christianity Today (both n-C Mags) about Alberto Rivera’s anti-Catholic hoax perpetrated by the (ever popular :rolleyes: ) Jack Chick. I was really kinda shocked, but in the end I just sorta shrugged and blew it off since I didn’t like the board anyway (clunky software and heavily anti-Catholic!).

Take care my friend and don’t let it get ya down…
Pax tecum,


#6

quote: Della

To them the Bible is only a succesion of verses that prove what they already “feel” is right.

“To them…”

?
Oh course, from “their” perspective, they think
[reason] that the RCC has turned the Good Shepherd
into Someone unrecognizable, and that the Council of Trent,
sealed their evaluation of same.

The RCC has kept the Mass, as sacrifice - and I say
"Good for her."

For a relation to the Good Shepherd…which includes
"feelings" of gratitude, praise, saftey and comfort of
soul - plus an acknowledgement of what Paul actually wrote,
it’s hello Evangelicalism.

So, it’s communion on Sunday [the Church got *that right
and treasured it], and the comfort of the Good Shepherd
and blessed assurance, Monday through Saturday.

As to “feeling”…I’d call that feeling the peace Christ promised.
And that makes a given human feel good, as Christ
meant for it to do. [even while carrying the cross He
told us to pick up and carry.]

Best, :tiphat:

reen12


#7

[quote=reen12]For a relation to the Good Shepherd…which includes “feelings” of gratitude, praise, saftey and comfort of soul … it’s hello Evangelicalism.
[/quote]

Jesus said to be his disciple that one must pick up his cross and follow him. What feelings does carrying a cross entail?

What is so very right about Catholicism is that it teaches that suffering is a part of the life of the disciple of Christ, and that the faithful Christian will suffer with Christ in his walk.When we cry, “Abba! Father!” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Romans 8:15-17Suffering? Offer it up! A great Catholic response. :slight_smile:

Suffering? You are suffering because you lack faith. A typical Evangelical Protestant “prosperity gospel” response. :frowning:


#8

Dear Matt16_18,

quote: Matt15_18

Suffering? Offer it up! A great Catholic response. :slight_smile:

Suffering? You are suffering because you lack faith. A typical Evangelical Protestant “prosperity gospel” response. :frowning:

Since they’ve read St. Paul, they know that they are
"…making up for the sufferings…"
The Church passed it on to me as “offer it up,” a
reference to St. Paul, and a reality in the possession of all
who believe in Christ.

What Evangelicals know is “Christ, and Him crucified.”

As well as:

quote: reen12
-washed in the blood of the Lamb
-His righteousness is my righteousness
-He is my justification *and *salvation
-the work of our salvation and justification
has already been accomplished by
Christ.

  • All we need do is accept and acknowledge Him
    as our Savior, accept the reality that He saves and
    justifies us - while following Him, in His commands,
    especially “Love the Lord thy God…and thy neighbor
    as thyself.”

In other words, they have read the gospels and St. Paul aright.

As to “prosperity” theology, let those who wish to be
diverted by same, go their way. Tho’ it does put me
in mind of Tetzel’s indulgence agents, crying out:

"The moment the coin in the coffer rings,
A soul from purgatory springs"
Now that’s what I call “prosperity” theology, writ LARGE. :tiphat:

Best,

reen12


#9

Could you clear something up for all of us? I have seen claim that you are an ex-Catholic and an apostate. I have also seen you claim that you are a Noahide that rejects Jesus as the Messiah, and that you accept a Judaic understanding of scriptures. And now you seem to be speaking as if you not an apostate, but a practicing Evangelical Protestant.

Do you, in fact, belong to any Protestant denomination? If you do, what is it?

Do you acknowledge Jesus as your Lord and Savior?


#10

right
and treasured it], and the comfort of the Good Shepherd
and blessed assurance, Monday through Saturday.

It’s great you recognize the Church is right about the Eucharist, but you are missing out on all the great Catholic spirituality by thinking that spirituality=“gratitude, praise, safety and comfort of soul”. It is partly that, but it is so much more than that! The great Catholic saints, such as St. Therese of Lisieux and St. Francis de Sales, went waaaaaaaaaayyyyy deeper. Unless and until you have explored true Catholic spirituality you really haven’t experienced the fullness of the Catholic faith.

As to “feeling”…I’d call that feeling the peace Christ promised.
And that makes a given human feel good, as Christ
meant for it to do. [even while carrying the cross He
told us to pick up and carry.]

Best, :tiphat:

reen12

But peace isn’t just a feeling, as I’m sure you know. Peace doesn’t come from feeling good, it comes from trusting in God, yes? Most especially when our cross becomes heavier than we had thought possible for us to carry. Once again, all that is in the Catholic Church’s spirituality. I think you are robbing yourself of the deepest riches of God by limiting your understanding to what Evangelicalism has to offer. And yes, I know about Evangelicalism’s limitations because I was in the Assemblies of God for about 20 years and plumbed the depths of what they had to offer us. Coming into the Catholic Church was like leaving the wading pool to dive into the ocean. :wink:


#11

Hi, Della,
quote: Della

But peace isn’t just a feeling, as I’m sure you know. Peace doesn’t come from feeling good, it comes from trusting in God, yes? Most especially when our cross becomes heavier than we had thought possible for us to carry. Once again, all that is in the Catholic Church’s spirituality. I think you are robbing yourself of the deepest riches of God by limiting your understanding to what Evangelicalism has to offer. And yes, I know about Evangelicalism’s limitations because I was in the Assemblies of God for about 20 years and plumbed the depths of what they had to offer us. Coming into the Catholic Church was like leaving the wading pool to dive into the ocean. :wink:

Della, I’m happy for you. My husband, too, is a convert.

Let me just say that I began a reply to your post,
thought better of it, and have begun a new reply, here.

I’ve read St. Therese of Lisieux and St. Francis de Sales -
30 years ago. I’m well trained and well read in the faith,
her spiritual traditions…
[Those saints don’t speak to me, Della. St. Benedict Joseph Labre does.]

In great suffering, blessed assurance brings comfort
of mind, heart and soul. That is what the peace of
Christ *is, *and why He offered it to us, because we
would carry the cross, and need that peace, in order
to endure it.

Best,

reen12


#12

Pray for their conversion. Strange as it may sound…often people are at their most obstinate when they are closest to conversion. It’s almost as if the Devil is waging one final battle before the person is overwhelmed by the truth and the Devil loses the soul to Christ.

Then, too, you could just be talking to an idiot.

Do your best, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.


#13

Hi, Matt16_18

quote:

Could you clear something up for all of us? I have seen claim that you are an ex-Catholic and an apostate. I have also seen you claim that you are a Noahide that rejects Jesus as the Messiah, and that you accept a Judaic understanding of scriptures. And now you seem to be speaking as if you not an apostate, but a practicing Evangelical Protestant.

Do you, in fact, belong to any Protestant denomination? If you do, what is it?

Do you acknowledge Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

In terms of your question:

-the Jesus, presented to me by the RCC, was Someone
I wouldn’t want to have lunch with, much less spend
an eternity with
-all the “you can’t know you’re saved [hence hell] with
certainty”, made me a nervous wreck
-goodbye Christianity
-now, I could pray alongside Israel, which spends
precious little time, worrying about the World to
Come. I don’t have to convert [in fact, conversion
is actively discouraged.] I can just be a Noahide…
a Gentile who accepts the God of Israel
-having peace of heart, I can now look peacefully at
both Judaism and Christianity
-slowly, I can see that the suffering we endure is
given meaning and value, in Christianity
-concurrently, I see that I can have a relationship
with Jesus, as He is presented in Scripture…
the Good Shepherd, the Divine Physician
and, lastly,
-that I can appreciate what the RCC does possess,
the Mass.

The thing that may confuse readers of my posts,
is that, despite the fact that I am quite ill, mentally,
this has not impaired my intellect, nor nullified 40 plus
years of reading…coupled with an ability to be articulate.

Since this past February, I’ve been working my way
through what I both thought and* felt* about faith…
intellect and emotion.

You can’t believe the injury done to my mind and heart,
by the catechesis of the 1950’s. I was so ill, even as a child,
and that teaching d*** near finished me off.

So, what some on these forums have been reading,
is a spiritual journey. If it seems confusing, it is
because it was confusing, as I tried to sort out
the reality of a human being’s relation to God.

quote:Matt16_18

Do you acknowledge Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

I hope He is Who He says He is, as described
in the Scriptures.

Hope, not faith. Still, God has walked with me, for
almost 60 years. He knows the illness I deal with.
And they tell me that Jesus is Mercy Itself, with
injured sheep.

I’ve had the pleasure of some on the forums, telling
me that I’ve been a help. It’s one of the reasons
I stay and post.

Sometimes it’s confusing for me, to deal with
Chronically Normal People [to borrow a phrase
from a psychologist, who - once a patient with
schizophrenia, now *heads the unit in which he
was a patient…medication sometimes works
wonders. :)]

You see, I identify a h** of a lot more with the
man born blind - who cried out for Jesus to
heal him - than I do with those sturdy souls,
sound of mind and body, who told the blind
man, in essence:
“Stop that noise, will ya?” :o

More than you probably wanted to know, but some may
find it a diverting account.

Best to you,

reen12

.


#14

I can relate to that – more than you know. But this is something that can be overcome if you desire to overcome it, and this needn’t cripple you as an adult. I speak from experience about this – oh, yes indeed, I can relate to what you say!

I hope He is Who He says He is, as described in the Scriptures. Hope, not faith.

The hope that you have is not “blessed assurance” if you have no faith in Christ.

The supernatural virtues of Hope and Faith are very great gifts from God, not something that can be generated out of the force of the will and the exercise of the intellect. And they are certainly not something that someone can argue you into having.

If you humbly ask God for the supernatural virtues of Hope and Faith in Christ, God will give you these precious gifts. But you have to be willing to completely abandon your way for God’s way – which is also something that can only be done with God’s grace.

I see that I can have a relationship with Jesus, as He is presented in Scripture… the Good Shepherd, the Divine Physician

IOW, the relationship you want is the relationship with Jesus as your Savior. That is a good thing and something that God desires that you have. But having a right relationship with Jesus means total abandonment to divine providence - entering into a relationship with Jesus not only as your Savior, but also a relationship of Jesus as your Lord.

The whole reason that humanity is in a mess is because man has tried to achieve union with God by doing things man’s way. But union with God can only happen when we abandon My Way for God’s Way. … but when some were stubborn and disbelieved, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them, taking the disciples with him …
Acts 19:9

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
Matt. 7:13-14


#15

[quote=jjoshjl]So, What do you do if showing scripture, explaining the logic, and even using their own rules gets you absolutly no where…

I jsut had a “discussion” with someone convensesd reading the bible in context was bad… I showed her scripture to the contrary, explained the logic was bad, so on and so forth, finally she said I am not reading the bible and need to study more clearly…

Finally, she left that board saying I know I am right your wrong poo on you. I am taking my toys and im goin’ home (not exact words)

So… what do you do when you hit brick walls like this… do you move on, or try again later

(by the way, i didnt even know readin in context was an issue…)

Cheers
[/quote]

You say a prayer for them - maybe a decade of the Rosary for their conversion. Then you continue to study on your own, under the guidance of the Holy Mother Church so that all future discussions will show you to be in ‘right thinking’.


#16

Dear Matt16_18,

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response, to
my post, above.

quote: Matt16_18
The hope that you have is not “blessed assurance” if you have no faith in Christ.

I do realize that, Matt. If I can arrive at a steady faith [and there are intermittent moments when I have faith] …more like the old
TV’s, where first you had a picture…then the screen goes
"snowy"…then you’ve got a picture.


BTW, I read that link you provided.
Good grief, Matt. My head was spinning, by the
time I finished. :nerd: Can’t anybody say anything
about Christ, simply?

I’ll have to read more material on this “Lordship” controversy.
[Remember, I’m trained to follow complex arguement. But
has the capacity to say something simply, been lost,
so that if we say something simply, we’re called “simplistic.”?]

You’re question was* both* simple and profound:

Do you acknowledge Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

As I said, I have hope, with flickers of faith.


I present the Evangelical position, in the hope
that some who read these threads [without posting
to same], and who may be as disaffected with the
RCC as I am, might realize that Jesus can be
both Savior and Lord, with blessed assurance.

But, I’ll tell you, Matt, I suspect that what may well
happen, is that I will finish out my last 20 years
[give or take], praying to the God I have known and
loved, since childhood.
Before things got complicated, with the Trinity.

I can “metabolize” that prayer life with God, both spiritually
and psychologically.


Thanks for being patient with me, Matt.
I’ll continue posting, but now you’ll know
where I’m coming from.

I’ll take the position: "If I were a Christian, I’d be
an Evangelical - who occassionally attends Mass."
That will make no sense to most, but it will
make me happy. :yup:

God be with you, Matt16_18,

reen


#17

[quote=reen12]Hi, Matt16_18

quote:

In terms of your question:

-the Jesus, presented to me by the RCC, was Someone
I wouldn’t want to have lunch with, much less spend
an eternity with

.
[/quote]

I have to laugh at this statement. Not out of any attempt to make fun of you. But for the simple fact that this is exactly how I felt attending a Baptist church. That is why I am becoming Catholic. It just struck me as ironic that we are going on completly opposite spiritual journeys for the exact same reasons.

Growing up Baptist I heard a lot of sermons on hell, revelations and sin. I realize that the majority of Baptists don’t take delight in the after death suffering of nonChristians, but it certainly seemed that way to me as a kid. I am not making a blanket statement against Baptist or any denominations, only talking about my own personal childhood experiences.

I, too, have spent a long time seeking God. I searched in many different beliefs. My husband’s mother is Jewish(as a year old infant in 1939, she was snuck out of Austria along with her family). If I was to stop being Christian, I would become Jewish. There is a deep beauty and wisdom in Judiasm.

If it is all right with you, I will remember you in my prayers.


#18

You can only expect them to be as open-minded as you are.


#19

jjoshl:

Only with much prayer, fasting (sacrifices). It is always humbling to realize that conversion or even becoming open to the faith is a gift of God. We cannot force the issue. We can love them, show good example, but in the end they have free will and also like you and me dependent on Divine Grace. Also a constant reminder that our part is not major, that’s solely for Christ, we just help set up the stage.

A priest once told me that our apostolate should be filled with joy not frustration. That stuck to me because this is exactly how the early Christians converted the hard nosed Romans. If we don’t have a “lightness” about us, why would they want to be like the drudgering us?

in XT


#20

Dear deb1

quote: deb1

I have to laugh at this statement. Not out of any attempt to make fun of you. But for the simple fact that this is exactly how I felt attending a Baptist church. That is why I am becoming Catholic. It just struck me as ironic that we are going on completly opposite spiritual journeys for the exact same reasons.

Growing up Baptist I heard a lot of sermons on hell, revelations and sin. I realize that the majority of Baptists don’t take delight in the after death suffering of nonChristians, but it certainly seemed that way to me as a kid. I am not making a blanket statement against Baptist or any denominations, only talking about my own personal childhood experiences.

I, too, have spent a long time seeking God. I searched in many different beliefs. My husband’s mother is Jewish(as a year old infant in 1939, she was snuck out of Austria along with her family). If I was to stop being Christian, I would become Jewish. There is a deep beauty and wisdom in Judiasm.

If it is all right with you, I will remember you in my prayers

.

What a joy I found your post to be!

quote: deb1

Growing up Baptist I heard a lot of sermons on hell, revelations and sin

My heart goes out to you. Anyone who could empathize
with my “wouldn’t want to go to lunch with” comment,
knows whereof I speak.

You know, deb1, my husband is a convert and loves
the Church. He has none of the “baggage” that I
have, in terms of childhood recollections of the Church.
I’ve become phobic, with regard to RC doctrine.


I’ve been posting away, steadily, since February,
trying to figure out what I could believe, while
maintaining psychological balance.

  • :slight_smile:

Long about April ?] I did opt for Judaism…not as a
convert, but as one who would “pray with Israel.”
[Noahide]. I was so edified by our neighbors- when
I was growing up - who would walk to the synagogue
on the Sabbath.
Such dear people, who loved God very much.

When I started posting, on all of this, I tried to
convey that all I wanted to do was to pray to
the God I knew, as a child.

I have come full circle, back to that position.

And, yes, it is ironic- you coming in one door,
as I go out the other.

Please know that I wish you joy, as you enter
the Church. And I do appreciate your prayers.
Please be assured of my own.

Kindest regards,

Maureen*


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